To Know more how you can benefit from the Muslim Times, go to our Homepage or About Us page. Promoted post: Our Favorite Christian Prayer by Saint Francis, For the Whole of our Human Family
This post was originally made by Ghulam Ahmed Rabbi
Author: Imam I. H. Kauser, National President of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Australia
Empty Tomb in Resthaven Memorial Park in Texas, USA. The Muslim Times has the most extensive and the best collection on rational understanding of Easter. Suggested reading: Joel Osteen: Enlarging the Circle of Love
1. Why crucifixion?
Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.
Suggested readings and viewing
BBC Documentary: Did Jesus Die On the Cross?
The Most Popular Video in the Muslim Times: Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
The Best Collection to Introduce Islam to the Fellow Christians
Suggested Reading for the best understanding of personal religion in the 21st century
2. Who wanted him to be crucified?
Two of Jesus’ disciples commented (in Luke 24:20) as follows:
And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. (Luke 24:20)
They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the Governor said what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying Let him be crucified…. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (Matt 27: 22-25)
3. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. (John 19:6)
The Jews answered him (Pilate), We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (John 19:7)
=============================
Suggested Reads:
Christianity: A Journey From Facts to Fiction
=============================
4. One incident and many aspects?
- Romans took it as punishment of sedition.
- The Jews made it as a punishment of blasphemy.
- Jesus considers it a killing, when one of his disciples betrayed him.
- Christians think a sacrifice presented for our salvation.
Who is right?
5. Why Jesus was hiding?
That’s why the Jews paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas giving them the necessary information about Jesus.
…Neither go into town, nor tell it to any in the town. (Mark 8: 26)
And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. ((Mark 8: 30)
6. Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:
Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)
…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)
7. God always hears his prayers and his prayers were heard
And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)
8. An Angel was sent to strengthen Jesus?
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22: 43-44)
9. Pilate delays in judgment
Pilate intentionally delayed in giving his verdict and did not deliver his judgment until and unless he was sure that due to the Sabbath, Jesus would be on the cross for only a few hours. Jesus a thirty-three years young person was on the cross for only few (3-6) hours.
10. Pilate’s complete favor to Jesus
Pilate was in complete favor of Jesus, considering him innocent, and for his wife’s dream, was trying to save his life. That’s why Pilate wanted to use his special right to free one person, but the Jews did not let him do it.
Pilate said unto them, whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas or Jesus…. But the chief Priests and the elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The Governor answered and said unto them, whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said Barabbas. Matt 27: 17-21)
11. Pilate’s wife sees a dream to save Jesus
When he sat down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.” (Matt 27:19)
Why was this dream was against the purpose of the advent of Jesus, to give his life on the cross? Her dream should have been that crucify him immediately. Let him finish his work. But her dream was against it. Although her dream was so special that it was mentioned in the Bible.
12. Pilate finds him “Not guilty”
… Pilate … he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person. (Matt 27:24)
===========================================================
Click to read Prophet Confucius: His testimony for one God and against Pauline Dogma
===========================================================
13. Earthquake, eclipse & a storm – A sign of God’s disliking & anger
An earthquake, eclipse of Sun and a Storm, all three occurred just after the crucifixion is a clear sign of God’s anger.
Now from sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (Matt 27:45)
…the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. (Matt 27: 51)
14. Pilate marveled
And Pilate marveled if he were already dead. (Mark 15: 44)
When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.
15. The other two (thieves) next to Jesus were still alive so they broke their legs
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. (John 19: 32)
16. Blood and Water – a great sign of Jesus’ life
When a soldier pierced a spear in Jesus’ side, blood and water gushed out from his body, with full pressure, is a sign and a witness that Jesus’ heart was still pumping and he was alive
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. (John 19:34)
Why coming of blood and water is so important that the narrator of the incident specially describes:
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. (John 19:35)
The person has put all stress on the truth of this witness, because of the great importance of it.
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross: http://t.co/ohKLP6hTHl
— O J DEEN (@JAMALDEEN2010) March 30, 2013
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
17. Why the soldiers checked Jesus alive or dead, piercing him a spears. What was the criteria, then to recognize?
The concept that one of the soldiers pierced Jesus a spear to check him, either he is alive or not, does not make any sense until and unless there was really a way of checking this way. Piercing Jesus a spear or some other way? What was that? How did they do it? Because one of the soldiers pierced a spear in Jesus’ body. Not to check his life or death. Otherwise they should have done the same with other two also.
18. Jesus legs were not broken
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs: (John 19:33)
19. Jesus was not buried in the grave
The Jewish custom for the last thousands of years was to bury the deceased in the ground. Because the disciples knew the predictions, which were made earlier by Jesus Christ, they kept Jesus’ body in a sepulcher. If they had buried him in a grave, he would have died. But his disciples placed him in a roomy “Sepulcher?” Rather then burying him in the ground according to the Jewish custom and traditions.
20. Neither Jews nor Christians are sure about Jesus’ death on the cross
There was a very strong earthquake, a storm and an eclipse of sun just after the crucifixion of Jesus, that made all Jews and Romans run away from the sight. That is why; neither Jews nor the Christians are sure about the death of Jesus on the cross but a gesture.
21. The stone on the sepulcher was removed
(For a spirit, does not need to remove the stone)
Jesus forbade Mary Magdalene to touch him.
Touch me not. (John 20:17)
Why?
==============================================
Click to read: Prophet Zoroaster : A Witness against Pauline Dogma
==============================================
22. Jesus said, “ He has not ascended yet. What did he really mean?
Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. (John 20:17)
What are the real meanings of ascension here, when Jesus said to Mary “I am not yet ascended to my Father.”
Certainly, it was understood and very clear without any doubt that Jesus had not ascended yet, while he was standing just in front of her. Then why Jesus said that he was not ascended yet?
23. Mary did not react, when she saw Jesus alive. Why?
24. Disciples were terrified seeing Jesus. (Luke 24: 39)
25. Jesus ate food, in the presence of his disciples.
… he said unto them, have ye here any meet? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24:41-42)
Jesus saith unto them, come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who are thou? Knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. (John 21: 12-13)
A spirit does not need any food but our physical body, which becomes weak after a while, without having food. Why Jesus needed food, if he had gone back to his original body of God.
For forty days he was meeting his disciples to assure them that he was alive and now going to the lost sheep of house of Israel, as he promised and assigned by God like Jonah was assigned to the Nin-e-viets.
…many infallible proofs being seen of them for forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)
26. Jesus never showed himself to the Jews (who challenged him) after he was saved from the accursed death of cross.
27. How come Jesus never said “I was dead and now I am alive?”
28. Jesus’ prediction about his sign to be very similar to the sign of Jonah
Jesus predicted his sign would be similar to the sign of Jonas.
An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s bally; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:39-40)
This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Nin-e-vites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation…for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Luke 11:29-32)
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the bally of the fish three days and three nights. (Jonah 1:17)
And Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. (Jonah 2:10)
And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it preaching that I bid thee. And Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh. (Jonah 3:1-3)
- Jonas entered into the belly of whale alive– Jesus died on the cross and entered in the heart of the earth dead.
- Jonas remained alive in the bally of whale. – Jesus Remained dead.
- Jonas came out alive bodily. – Jesus came out in spirit.
- Jonas stayed three days and three nights in the bally of whale. – Jesus one day and two nights.
- Jonas went back to his people. – Jesus went back to heaven. Without fulfilling the promise which he made earlier, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt 15:24)
Jesus should have gone to the lost tribe of Israel, as Jonas went to his people “Nin-e-vites”, not to heaven.
29. Appearance of an Angel, saying, why, you looking for a living person into the dead.
And it come to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seeketh ye the living among the dead. (Luke 24:4-5)
And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. (Luke 24:23)
30. The stone of tomb was removed
It was a physical body not a spiritual one:
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher. (Luke 24: 2)
31. Jesus’ prayers against his death on the cross
Jesus prayed again and over again, saying, O God, take this cup away from him. Why he prayed against the purpose of his advent?
“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me….” (Mark 14:36)
If his escape from the death on the cross was not possible then why Jesus was praying for it? Didn’t he know?
32. Jesus awakening his disciples, requesting for special prayers for his safety
“…saith to his disciples, sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder…. And began to be sorrowful and very heavy… And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and said unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray…” (Matt 26: 36-41)
=================================================
Click to read: Prophet Buddha: A Witness against Pauline Dogma
=================================================
33. Jesus’ in flesh and bones after he had risen
Jesus showing his hands and feet to his disciples, proving and arguing them, that he was alive bodily.
“They were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts are in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see for a spirit hath no flesh and bones, as you see me have…. he shewed them his hands and his feet.” (Luke 24:37-40)
34. Why Jesus needed the body (Flesh) again?
35. Jesus’ wounds- a great sign of his survival
Jesus through showing his wounds to his disciples was proving that he was alive bodily:
The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he (Thomas) said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of his nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe… Then he said to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: be not faithless, but believing. (John 20: 25-27)
A Spirit can’t have the wounds. It means he was alive bodily.
Why Jesus addressed Thomas “not to be faithless but believing? Jesus advised Thomas to have faith, but in which and what? Yes! Faith in the fulfillment of the promise of God saving Jesus from the accursed death on the cross which Jews had designed for him.
Why Jesus had a physical body after he had risen from the dead? Why this physical body still had the signs of wounds? Now there should have been nothing but his soul and spirit? Did he want to take these wounds along with him to the heavens to show them to God? If that is the case, then, we know very well, that these wounds alone did not kill him, but many other things including the cross. If he needed the proofs of his service to be presented to God, then he should have taken all his wounds including, the signs of flogging, beating, hitting, kicking, spitting and the cross (piece of wood) on which he was crucified.
36. Jesus prayers and God’s response: (Hebrews 5:7)
37. Hungry Jesus, asking for food
He ate fish and a honeycomb.
38. Jesus’ shroud: -“Shroud of Turin” a sign that Jesus was alive.
“And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth.” Matt 27:59)
39. Using 100 pounds of aloes, myrrh and some other spices on Jesus’ body, as the manner of Jews. Whether Jews use 100 pound of myrrh, aloes and some other spices at their burial? Or there were some special arrangements were made for Jesus’ safety. Nicodemus, who was a physician and a disciple of Jesus, made this special arrangement before the crucifixion of Jesus:
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to burry. (John 19:39-40)
40. Jesus said “I am going to ‘Galilee’ before the disciples.”
41. An error made by the Jews: – “….the last error shall be worse than the first.” (Matt 27:64)
Jews accepted that they had made an error. What kind of error had they made? Now they were afraid not to make another error. Did they make another error? Yes! They did.
42. Why Jews bribed the soldiers?
Jews bribed large money) the soldiers who had been assigned to guard the sepulcher.
“And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken council, they gave large money unto the soldiers.”(Matt 28:12)
They bribed the soldiers to hide the fact. What was that?
43. Empty tomb of Jesus (the sepulcher), is a great Mystery. Jesus body was not found in the sepulcher.
================================================
Mother Mary wants all Christians to be Muslims! The Doctrine of immaculate conception
================================================
44. Jews were afraid of a conspiracy: –
Jews were sure, even ahead of time that his disciples will definitely announce, “Jesus had been ascended to heaven” as it is mentioned:
“…Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, after three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal his him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead.”(Matt 27: 63-64)
45. Jesus’ crucifixion- a test of Jews
The crucifixion was made criteria for Jesus’ truth. The Jews at the time of crucifixion said: – “…save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.” (Matt 27:40)
“Let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.”(Matt 27:42)
“He saved others; himself he cannot save.”(Matt 27:42)
46. Could Jesus save his life? If he is God then perhaps he could. If he could then it is a suicide.
But, he was constantly pleading to God the Father for the bitter cup to be taken away.
47. Pilate’s complete favor for Jesus; _Pilate; the Governor tried his best to save Jesus’ life, because of his wife’s dream.
48. Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him- crucify him.”
“Then all say unto him, Let him be crucified.” (Matt 27:22)
49. Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose, although I am already 4000 years late, going by the Biblical calendar and time of Adam and Eve.”
50. Jesus never went to the cross happily, but in miserable situation.
51. Who compelled Jesus to be crucified and why?
==========================================================
St Paul The 13th Apostle? Do Read
==========================================================
52. Jesus said: “For salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22) What it means? And why only for the Jews?
53. Crucifixion – a killing in the eyes of Jesus.
Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19)
But you seek to kill me. (John 8:40)
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. (Mark 9:31)
54. Jesus complained to God, why have you forsaken me? It means, God for his safety made a promised.
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, Lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why have hast thou forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
55. In Jewish law, the “Crucifixion” was an accursed death”-
“…for he that is hanged is accursed of God” (Deut 21: 23)
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for ud: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3: 13)
56. Why the disciples of Jesus, when they met him in Galilee, still had some doubts? “…Some doubted” (Matt 28:17)
What kind of doubts and what about?
Did they have doubts about Jesus being alive and saved from the accursed death of cross or some thing else?
57. Jesus said, “Even so every good tree bringth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringth forth evil fruit.” (Matt 7:17)
How come that this heinous crime of persecuting him mercilessly brought such a good result?
58. Making his arrest is a greater sin
“Jesus answered (to Pilate); He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” (John 19:11)
How a greater sin can bring salvation to the world. Sin means, being disobedient to God, breaking His laws and commandments.
“…the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matt 26:45)
59. Jesus accursed Judas for his betrays.
Jesus said, “…but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matt 26:24)
But, it was Judas who made the salvation possible. If he had not been born, there would not have been any salvation for us.
Jesus said, “It had been good … if he had not been born.”
Why the contradiction?
60. Who can kill God? God is Holy. Nobody can kill God. God is eternal and immortal, free from the suffering of death. He is always alive. He is out of the approach of the human hands. Sinners’ hands cannot reach Him or harm Him.
If Jesus died for three days and three nights, then he is no longer eternal and hence not co-equal to God the Father.
61. Why Jesus (if he was a God) let the Jews and Romans disgrace Him and do all kind of insulting and persecution? What “The Most High” means and “God is Great.” God is not supposed to be humble and show not only humility, but actually disgrace at the hands of His enemies.
62. Jesus never mentioned that the purpose of his coming was to give his life on the cross.
63. Salvation through keeping the commandments of God:
Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing Jesus’ death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God. As it is in the Book of Matthew:
And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matt 19:16-17)
64. If salvation through crucifixion, then the credit goes to Jews, Romans & Judas
They are the Jews who demanded from the Roman Governor Pilate to put him on the cross. And Judas betrayed Jesus and made his arrest possible; otherwise Jesus was hiding in the garden of Gethsemane. Chief Priests paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas for informing the authorities for his arrest.
============================================================
Jesus wasn’t born on December then why is Christmas celebrated on 25th?
============================================================
65. A soldier saw Jesus walking, informs the chief priest
“The watch” who saw (Jesus and his disciples meeting and going) all these things, told the Chief Priest in the city.
Now when they were going (Jesus and his disciples), behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. (Matt 28: 11)
===================================================
Watch now! Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
It has tonnes of evidence put together in a very constructive way.
Day by day we are moving towards uncovering the mask of the false dogma of Christianity.
===================================================
65 Reasons to Believe #Jesus Did Not Die on the #Cross
Read more: http://t.co/dtcpARiHvd— LajnaIma’illahCanada (@LajnaCanada) January 25, 2015
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
Categories: CHRISTIANITY, Easter, Highlight, Religion and Science
Beautiful words of advice from Ra’ees on 13 May 2013. Good advice to go to the friend (real disciple) of Jesus (a.s.), such as Barnabas and not to Paul who was an enemy.
It was a clear bad deed to destroy the real good gospels and replace them with weaker versions in 325 A.D. Let us worship the Creator and not the created (Jesus a.s.)
I have written a long comment a couple of weeks ago, why isn’t it published? I did not offend anyone, just answered some of the questions above. Are you afraid of arguments which prove a different faith?
We are not afraid of the Christian arguments, precisely the opposite is true.
Please do not give us a whole thesis. May be one argument at a time, in 2-3 paragraphs and we will tackle it.
Thank you
some comments here are very long, mine was nowhere near these!
what I meant now is that I constructed a paragraph answering Abraham bin Haque questions, but it was never published.
God’s fogiveness is His promise to us (vide the parallel of the merciful Samaritan), and noone – NOONE – can actually say someone is not going to be forgiven
but in the same time we can “secure” the path to God following Jesus’s words: “noone comes to Father in a different way than through me” and “I am the Way, the Tryth, the Life”. And I believe it because I believe the source that says it, but I also believe my personal experience of meeting Him.
Jesus did hundreds of miracles that hundreds of people saw and documented, the Bible itself is the most historically proven “ancient” book that exists. It has hundreds of copies from very early days and they are all compatible with each other, they point exactly the same texts. If you examin the way other “old” books are preserved you will be astonished how reliable the Bible original text is. I recommend that you read the history of Bible before you start the arguments of its “corruption”.
In fact it is Quran that mentions people and places that NO OTHER BOOK mentions, it is impossible to verify it. Yu believe the book is the miracle, but the only sourse of this faith is… Koran itself. And there are no other ‘indifferent’ sources confirming it.
Dear Aleksandra
The Bible is / was word of God, but, has not been preserved over time and it has been adulterated.
Most Christians now understand my above claim.
Have you heard the name of Prof. Bart Ehrman?
Please search his name in the Muslim Times, Youtube and Amazon. Please watch some of his videos and read some of his books, to move from the 19th century to 21st, please.
Sorry, but most christians, in fact – ALL OF THEM – believe in the Bible, otherwise they would not be called/called themselves “christians”
I have not ehard about Bart Ehrman, but have you heard about Joseph Ratzinger and million other christian scholars, who examine and scrutinize the Bible for the past 2000 years and still proclaim its truth…?
Sorry, but what you are stating is not true. Most christians, in fact – ALL OF THEM – believe in the Bible, otherwise they would not be called/called themselves “christians”… No word was altered whatsoever, there are of course various translations, but no meaning have been altered.
Exluded or added. Church’s councils were only officially ‘stamping’ the collection of writings, which were in common and public use already, just to make it easier to find all scriptures together. What we call the canon of the Bible today.
I have not ehard about Bart Ehrman, but have you heard about Joseph Ratzinger, Gerge Weigel and few thousands other christian scholars, who have been examining and scrutinizing the Bible for the past 2000 years and still proclaim its truth…? Does the name St. Augustine ring any bells?
For starters:
The Forged Bible — By Prof. Bart Ehrman
The fact that one scholar is lying/misled/prejudiced does not mean there is any truth in it. There are scholars proving him wrong (and I am not a scholar so I would be lying if I said I can prove it myself – look for Lee Stobel, for a start, but the biggest authorities here are true teologists like Joseph Ratzinger, one of the wisest men in the history).
Did you know there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament? His origin, the way He will be born, the way He will die and what for…
Leave alone scholars and debates, all we can do is quote them as none of us has been there when these events happen and can witness ourselves, can we? At the end of the day all of is the matter of FAITH: If all could be mathematically proven there would be no faith needed, neither in the Bible nor in Quran.
Jesus said: “by their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” (Mt 7:16)
If you are truly looking for truth then try thinking why is there so much hatred, death and violence in the muslim world and why don’t christians strike back but embrace muslim in their countries instead…? because we christians take our strength to love from our Lord, who died Himself and risen, now the death has no power on Him any more, so our faith in Him conquers all the death in us.
And Ms. Aleksandra how do you explain spainish inquisition, burning of 5000 women on stakes and bloody wars that killed a large part of Europe in middle ages- Perhaps all out of love of Christ and the final conquest over death. can you explain which nations were engaged in first and second world war and dropped and atom bomb over japan resulting in millions of human deaths? Were they all Muslims? Of course all the children abused by the Catholic chruch were abused in the name of christ or these were all muslims disguised as catholic priests? please open your eyes and try to overcome your Islamophobia so that your intellect can breathe some fresh air. May Allah guide you.
commonly known facts on spanish inquisitions are lies too – in fact for their times it was very modern, progressive and MERCIFUL approach to trials, do some deep reasearch rather than watching talking heads on youtube, please.
Then, don’t start the bidding on the number of victims here, does the Ormian massacre ring any bells?
and if it comes to pedofilia… in the church problem happens, but it is dealt with and not shuffled inder the carpet, as if nothing happened(read the facts and the statements of the pope!). …
Allah cannot enlighten me as he is only an moon god, my light is Jesus and I breath in deeply.
Now I doubt you will publish my comment, but this is only the reposponse to Mr Abdul Alim, so if you cancel this response it means you are not allowing a fair debate.
wow… The inquisition was modern – may be for its time – and MERCIFUL, well, that is a new interpretation that I never heard before.
Calling established well known parts of history as lies to satisfy oneself is the greatest lie of all. If this is how you wish to research truth, then please keep doing this until you can get out of this dark trap. May the Lord God of Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them) have mercy on your soul.
you people ask funny questions. how can somebody come to die for you and you expect that the person should not die.humans have sinned from the very beginning God had a master plan to bring human close to him through the removal of their sins.it is for this purpose that Jesus came to take away the sins of mankind and reconcile man with God by laying his blood to wash us from our sins.so why should he save himself.if the Jews were telling him to save himself cos he saved others, means the knew he had the powers to free himself and wanted to test him not knowing that they are fulfilling the prophecy said by the prophets of old that a virgin shall conceive and give birth to a child that will save mankind.please try to read the bible well and you will discover that Jesus was only fulfilling what was already written.Allah Bless you as you seek the truth cause only the truth can free your mind.remain blessed
All what has been said by you guys to prove that Jesus is not the son of God doesn’t hold true. if u are send to die for some body why would you save yourself. Again Jesus did not resurrect as a spirit, he resurrected body and spirit. and the wounds were not meant to show God rather there are
to mr Rafiq – we learn all life, if we want to
please, start with reading this short article, there are futher links inside if you are interested
http://douglawrence.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/interesting-facts-about-the-spanish-inquisition/
(NB this is the reason why the Pope never apologized for “the wrongs” of the inquisition, unlike other wrongs of the church in the history – there is nothing to apologize for)
the inquisition introduced documenting of the processes and the institution of an advocate, unlike the “laic” trials (governed by the political authorities) of that time
people preferred to be processed by the inquisition court as their treatment was much more fair that this of the “government” courts
Then, in reality there were very few death sentences comparing to these laic trials, for example the number of death sentences issued by the most famous Spanish Inquisitior Bernard Guy is 42 theough his whole “career” – if you read “In the name of the Rose” you can get a totally different (false) impression; Then, the death sentences were given on people who were dangerous for the society. These were different times, where community mattered more than an individual. But even today, imagine a mad terrorist preaching people false islam full of hatred, leading them astray… we would prosecute them today too, to protect the society
you should read a lot more about the background and the facts, not base you information on the novels and hollywood films (which most people do, unfortunately)
hope it helps
My dear Aleksandra
For more than three centuries, after 1492 CE, there was not a single Muslim allowed to live in Europe.
In contrast to that, India was a Muslim majority country after ten centuries of Muslim rule.
One can have ones opinion but not ones own facts.
Hope it helps.
Tolerance: Cultural side of Islam by Pickthall, the first British Muslim
Religion has no boundaries so everyone has a right of freedom to express and share their own feelings and beliefs….
Mr Zia, how will you explain then the muslim Tatars living in Poland without any disturbances from the beginning of the XIV century, throughout all these ages, till now…?
Yes, there were wars in Europe, as everywhere else, for lots of reasons mainly political, but there was freedom of religion all this time too.
@ Abdul Alim
how can ANY prophet in the world have MERCY on my soul…? salvation is the attribute of God only, you are going far too far in your worshipping of PEOPLE
Aleksandra, you speak like a true Muslim!
@ Abdul Alim
I apologize, I misread your comment – you did say “May Lord… have mercy”
@ Rafiq
true muslims I know worship Muhammad, noone is even allowed to ask questions about him, let alone contesting anything he said or did… whatever it was – they have to follow step by step… without any critical thinking, as if he was GOD
I try to speak and live as a true christian though, and worship God only, none of his prophets
Aleksandra: strange, I do not know any Muslim that ‘worships’ the Prophet (peace be on him), respect, yes.
Dear Aleksandra
You said you worship God only. Do you believe in Trinity?
Muslims do not worship Muhammad they only love him, you are substituting one meaning of worship that is ‘adoration’ with its literal meaning.
Peace.
This is interesting, thanks for posting. The author seems to respect these passages taken from the Injil – so much so that he is using them to build his case. I wonder, does the author respect the rest of the Injil? For example, would he give the same respect to passages from the same Gospel he is quoting from? Such as:
Mark 8:31 ‘And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.’
Mark 9:31 ‘…for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”’
These are direct quotes from Jesus. Do these passages get the same respect?
Thanks!
Reply to Kyle:
We Ahmadi Muslims give due respect to the holy Bible even though we know that there has been much additions and subtractions in Bible by human hands. We also know that the Christians do not give any respect to the Quran. So there is no balanced approach in matters of respect.
The important point raised by Kyle from the Gospel of Mark is about death of Jesus (On cross, of course). Kyle wants to point to the Muslims that Jesus died. Kyle wants Muslims to believe that Jesus had died on the Cross.
I am sorry. It is not possible for the following reasons:
1. The enemies of Jesus wanted to kill him on the cross. We Muslims believe that they did not succeed in killing Jesus on the cross. Why are Christians so much interested to kill Jesus on Cross? He suffered much on the Cross. What harm is there if he did not die?
2. Our book (The Quran) tells us that prayer of Jesus in the Garden, before arrest, was accepted. God informed Jesus that he will not die on the Cross but he will die a natural, peaceful, respectable death. So we Muslims can never believe that Jesus died on the Cross.
3. Death on the Cross is well known according to the Bible OT as a cursed death. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus was a cursed person. That is a point in our favor and in favor of Jesus a.s.
4. The charge against Jesus was blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy according to the Bible OT is stoning to death, and not Crucifixion. Will Kyle kindly tell me why the elders of the Jews were adamant to kill Jesus on the Cross? It was to prove that he is a cursed (false) person. That was a bad plot against Jesus.
5. What I cannot understand is Christians consider Jesus as God (or god). Then they believe that the god dies too. That is impossible. They can make a choice ( i.e. decide) is he a god? or an ordinary man? If Jesus is just a man (a pious person) then he can die. A God cannot die.
6. In the original article, 65 reasons have been given to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross. Naturally, proofs had to be given from the Bible to suit the Christian friends. They do not believe in the Quran. So most proofs had to come from the Bible NT. And Kyle wants us to believe in the whole of Bible. It is not necessary to do that if there are clear difficulties.
7. Even if Jesus said what he said that he will be handed over to the elders and he will be killed, it is perfectly alright. Jesus was right what he told his followers because that is what he knew and that was going to happen.
When he was talking to his followers, he did not know that he will be saved (miraculously). He was sure that he will be killed. He was not afraid of death. But he did not want to die on the Cross.
That is why he prayed in the garden before arrest, to avoid death on the Cross. He beseeched God Almighty to save him from the death on the Cross. God Almighty accepted his prayer. An angel visited him and comforted him and informed him that his prayer was accepted. He will not die on the Cross.
After that Jesus did not say to his followers that he will be killed. He was sure that he will be saved.
When on the Cross all things appeared to go wrong, Jesus reminded God Almighty, about his promise to save him, in the words: Eli, Eli, Lama sabaqatani? “O My Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?”
We Muslims are doing what is right, by giving due respect to the Bible, as much as can be done.
After going through all the above postings one way I am very happy to say that Muslim brothers are reading the Holy Bible regularly and on the other way this made me to remember a story which I read during my school years. And it was about some Blind men who wanted to see an Elephant. When one of the blind men touched the elephant’s proboscis he thought that Oh this is the elephant. Then another one who touched the ear was thinking that oh elephant is like our ears. Again another blind who touched the leg was thinking that oh the elephant is like the legs. Like wise all the blinds who touched each parts of the elephant were thinking that oh this is elephant. Finally every one came to know that no one find the appearance of the elephant exactly because they all were blind. Hope now that all the brothers must have understood about the contents of the story. I pray to God to open everyone’s eyes so everyone can read the Holy Bible and understand about its teachings like promises, prophecies,crucifixion, commandments, Salvation, repentance,Baptism,anointment of Holy Spirit, communion, worship, heaven and hell etc. Holy Bible is like ocean and no one can sail on it easily. Jesus Christ,Yesterday,Today and Tomorrow He never CHANGES. May God our Lord JESUS CHRIST bless all our brethren.
Dear Chandra
Thanks for your comment. But, tell me something, why do you discriminate so much between Jesus, may peace be on him and the Holy Ghost.
Must Christians seem to obsess over Jesus and ignore the Holy Ghost, why is that? Oh one more thing, why is it that Jesus keeps praying to God the Father in the Gospels but ignores Holy Ghost, as well?
If the Holy Spirit is a Person of His Own, Then Why Isn’t He Sitting on Heaven’s Big Throne?
There is one reason to believe that according to man’s understanding of death, Jesus did die on the cross; God had said that it would happen in prophecies throughout the Torah and Prophets and in many cultures.
According to God’s understanding, Jesus could not die; He was the Son of God, the Word of God in flesh. The Word of God cannot die.
Revelation 1:18
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
The Qur’an confirms the Bible in 600+AD; Muslims would have translated it into Arabic etc. and they would not be able to claim it has been changed. The primary message through the Prophet Muhammad was, “Say O People of the Scripture, you stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and the Gospel and all God has sent down to you.” Al-Ma’iday 5:68, 69; 5:43-51 – judge by Torah. 42:14-16
Sabbath commandment means to follow Torah, leave work on Friday, because Saturday is the Lord’s day of no work. The blessings of peace are for obedience and belief. Muslims have misinterpreted what was given in the Qur’an and the sorrow on mankind are shown on those who call themselves believers in many religions. All holy books, including the Gospel, guide to following all God’s commandments. Peace is available. Happy Ramadan, God bless you with courage and truth.
Marie Devine • Dear Adnan, I’m sorry if you think I misquoted or half quoted Qur’an teaching; I will be more precise. My Qur’an is from Ahmadiyya Movement of Islam, Arabic-English translation 1960 which was given to me by an imam at the mosque on Mount Carmel in 1996.
This is very important subject for Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. My understanding is that when Mahdi comes, or the promised messenger in Malachi 4, he will fulfill the message of Jesus, and Moses which Prophet Muhammad confirmed. That would make that message the fore—runner of Messiah because Acts 3:19-21 says, Jesus comes after restoring God’s word:
Acts 3:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Qur’an 5:68, 69:
O Messenger! Convey to the people what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou do it not, thou hast not conveyed His Message at all. And Allah will protect thee from men. Surely, Allah guides not the disbelieving people.
:69 Say, ‘O People of the Book! You stand on nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and what has now been sent down to you from your Lord.’ And surely, what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief; so grieve not for the disbelieving people.
Though Muhammad came in 600+AD, that message agrees with Jesus-Isa’ message in agreement with Moses: “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3, 4:2
What you said regarding “followers of both books have interpolated verses of their books, changed the meanings” does not mean they changed the words in the Bible, or God would have guided Muhammad differently, but their practice was even as it was in Jesus’ time different from what the Scriptures commanded, and also as it is in our time.
Four times in the Qur’an God says, No one change His word.
My belief according to what I witness from Islam, is they also have ignored what is written; but when they take that “rightly guided message” written in the Bible, as Muhammad was commanded to convey, then they will lead the world into “submission to the will of God” which is what Islam means. It would be the cleansed Islam, the cleansed Judaism, the cleansed Christianity… even the expectation of world religions, one understanding for all who choose to accept it.
Ma Salam
2 days ago:
Dear Adnan, peace be upon you also. The blood of all people come from the father. Qur’an agrees that Jesus-Isa was virgin birth; that means the blood was Father God’s sinless blood. God’s word is also sinless. It was Father God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob who shed His blood on Calvary. Jesus was the container who chose to only do the will and word of God, sacrificing the life he could have had (as a professional speaker, carpenter, etc. making a lot of money, having a family and fine home etc.).
Jesus sacrificed His life to tell us that God is true to His word even in the most horrific prophecies, including crucifixion. Muhammad was a container and all prophets; and all of us are to be the kind of container that Jesus-Isa was, sacrificing our search for riches and honors and possessions and make our full purpose to fulfill and spread the word of God to bring in His Kingdom laws… Qur’an says that is Torah, not Sharia. (5:43-51)
The blood on Calvary was shed for the forgiveness of sins when we ask forgiveness and turn to God’s word in truth. The life of Jesus shows our way of salvation, to save us from enslaving and destroying ourselves by our own pursuits.
My humble suggestion for all faiths is to put aside the designation of Christian or Jew or Muslim from discussions of the word of God so you are not deceived by those who think they are true, but do not follow in truth, but according to their leaders. In the same way, the Islam of today cannot overtake the world; it is not truly submitted to the word of God, since the Qur’an is clear throughout, not to be divided between Moses and Jesus, Torah or Gospel. Qur’an says to fight by means of Qur’an; this is the fight; peacefully, in love, turning all back to the whole Bible; through Muhammad and others, God confirmed it. Only love overcomes evil; it is the law of God, very clear in the Gospel.
The prophet Muhammad was a messenger to primarily Christians and Jews who, like now, only followed part of the Bible. The Mahdi, the Christ of God, the messenger that comes will only come with the message, Repent, follow what is written; that means the whole Bible. When we honor God in truth, the Kingdom of God within us will be manifest for the world to see, and for us to see; and prophecy will be fulfilled which says, “For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Isaiah 54:5
See Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28-30
Exodus 20, Leviticus 23, Deuteronomy 4:2, Matthew 4:4, Luke 16:31
Qur’an, Al-Ma’idah 5:68, 69; 42:14-16; 5:43-51;
Ma Salam
Dear Marie,
Since Original Sin started with Adam and Eve, Mary the mother or Jesus, was also sinful since she had Adam and Eve’s blood. Jesus had no father but his Mary’s blood was contaminated with sin from his great great grandfather/grandmother Adam/Eve and Mary’s blood was in Jesus as we all know hence he must also be sinful! Who is going to save him?
If not having a father makes someone worthy to be son of God or sinless, then Adam who had neither a father or a mother is more entitled to these titles i.e. son of God or sinless. Definitely not Jesus.
Although, I enjoy the comments posted but I haven’t seen any Christian friends addressing the 65 reasons logically and they are diverting from the subject matter. Something must be bothering them! If you can’t defend your belief with reasons do you really believe in anything?
May Allah shield His Unity from ignorance and false belief.
Jesus did die on the cross and he rose three days later. Source: The Bible
… JESUS IS A MIRACLE. . RIGHT FROM CONCEPTION HE WAS DIFFERENT. .
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE SON OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. . AND HE DIED SO I WOULDN’T DIE ETERNA
LLY AND HE ROSE SO I BELIEVE I WILL RISE AGAIN AFTER I DIE. SIMPLE!
TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.. AND NOTHING NOR WHAT SOME SCHOLAR THINKS CAN CHANGE WHAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED WITH MY JESUS.
We Christians CAN defend our beliefs, we use the Bible and the belief of the church from the VERY BEGINNING, captured in early apologetics scriptures. You claim, however (not sure on what basis though) that the source is corrupted. Hence the discussion is a vicious circle. You do not approve our argument as you discard the credibility of the source.
Funny that you use the same source to prove YOUR point of view. Very significant.
I would never quote a single word of a source that I would believe deeply has been corrupted…
What you do here is a wishful thinking, either you believe the Bible or not. Bible has been analysed critically MANY TIMES and all researchers confirm its authenticity, there are number of sources – very early ones – confirming the message from the Bible. I recommend you read the Ambrosius and other fathers of church. Unlike Quran, it is not only the Bible that talks about itself, there is a whole historical context it is deeply immersed in and compatible with. While Quran talks about people and places not known to anything other that the Quran… (but this is an entirely different discussion)
Every one of us is free to believe what he/she likes. i wish that Christians and Jews had the same respect for Muhammad as the Muslims have for Jacob, Moses and Jesus (a.s.) The Quran tells us that they were the pious leaders (prophets).
I had a problem with a Christian friend. He did not respect Muhammad at all. At the same time he was annoyed with me because I called Jesus a prophet of God. He was annoyed because I did not consider Jesus as a God. I was surprised at that imbalance.
I knew that in BibleNT it was written that people considered Jesus as a prophet. They were not wrong. Many good examples have been given in above posts that there are internal contradictions in Church teachings. Considering Jesus as god (against any proof from gospels) and then believing that he died, i.e. a god to prays to another God and dies also is not easy to believe. Muslims have no problem if Christians are happy with such belief.
Then believing in three gods and One God at same time, and believing in a man god, it is difficult. Muslims belief is as in Torah i.e. Your God is One.
I wish some one please inform me, from where the Church got the idea of three Gods i.e. Trinity. Kindly give some news.
We Ahmadi Muslims want the Jews and the Christians to be good Jews and Christians. Likewise we want the Muslims to be good Muslims. Peace, love and liberty will be helpful in bridging the gaps.
The topic of the present discussion is that Jesus (a.s.) did not die on the cross. He prayed to God to save him and He was saved miraculously. Even though much of BibleNt has been amended (daily) and there is no original bible available, yet the present BibleNT does not support the beliefs of the Church, such as ” He was God”, “He was begotten (literal) son of God”, ” There are Three Gods in One and One God in three”, “Jesus was the only sinless person”…
All these cannot be proved even by the much amended Bible that we have in our hands today.
Jesus was a Jew, son of a Jew, from the Jews, for the Jews. The elders of the Jews did not accept him even though he was accepted by many Jews. He was for the Jews and he did not want to start a new faith at all. He did not want to start a new religion. But Allah gave him respect and did not want him to die away in oblivion. Allah promised him to make him a sign for all the world (as mentioned in the Quran, chapter 19). So Allah did that and Jesus (a.s.) lives today.
There is of course a reason why Muslims respect Jesus and Christians have problems respecting Mohammad (peace be on him). In the Qur’an Jesus is mentioned many times and we sort of ‘have to’ respect him, while the Christians are not aware that Mohammad (peace be on him) is mentioned in the bible.
@ Ghulam: You say christians don’t respect Muslims. In which christian country we don’t allow building mosques or introduce blasphemy laws?
Do we kill our christian brothers or sisters for converting to islam?
Please, be honest here. Respect for other faiths is NOT a respect for the object of their belief (we do not believe Mohammad was blessed, fullstop) but the respect other believers as PEOPLE (so you are free to believe in Mohammad and proclaim it). We christians allow everyone practice their beliefs without worshipping the same thing. Tolerance for others does not mean the same beliefs.
I tolerate hindus too, not believing in Ganesh or Kali…
@Aleksandra: I did not say “Christians don’t respect Muslims”. Please check. Some Christians are quite peaceful loving persons.
You are right that western governments are sensible in accommodating people of all faiths, Hindus, Muslims, Jews,Christians. Credit goes to the secular governments.
I just found TMT today and I am quite impressed. This article “65 Reasons…” is compelling, well researched, and well reasoned. I’m thankful the article has been supported by commentary for over a year!
I am thankful that the Muslim author of this article has educated me, a formally Christian atheist.
Interesting that you feel you can use the bible to disprove it, when you lack understanding of the content and have your own bias.
I suggest if you are really seeking the truth, that you ask Jesus to reveal himself, my friend …. Jesus died on that cross for you so you could have a relationship with your maker. You might be surprised what will happen if you open your heart to Jesus rather then debating about him.
This may help an honest search of the facts, there is an excellent short book called “more than a carpenter by Josh Mcdowell which is available for free download, it presents a case in context by someone who try to rubbish the Christian faith, in the end the Author discovered and accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. http://www.gobookee.net/more-than-a-carpenter/
I must commend you if you are genuinely searching for answers, God made us with a brain to ask questions however I pray that you would reflect from your heart what you wish to achieve from this.
The Romans were a ruthless people, life was very cheap and your arguments are simply arguments, you were not there. No one is forcing you to believe it is your choice to accept it or reject it.
The bible states 1 cor1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
I pray that you might consider being sincere with Jesus and you be surprised. The bible promises that if you draw near to God then HE will draw near to you.
In response to ” 7. Jesus traveled 70 miles on foot to Galilee, met only his close friends, did not appear in public because he was a condemned man.
The best answer was to travel towards east to get out of the jurisdiction of the Roman empire as quickly as possible. (Wassalam.)”
This is very funny, you can you be serious or trying to be logical? Jesus was whipped and nailed to a cross, then poked with a spear as starters and now you believe he was able to escape and walk 70 miles on foot. It highlights your bias against the Gospels and I suggest reading the book previously mentioned above and take a step of faith and ask Jesus to reveal himself thru his word. Blessings
Jesus whipping is in the imagination of indoctrinated Christians or a side effect of watching Mel Gibson’s the Passion of the Christ movie. It has perhaps been gradually woven into history over time. If you read the earliest Gospel, which is the Gospel of Mark, the King James version reads, telling us that he was hit with a reed, which means a bush:
By the time we reach the New International Version the reed has become a staff:
Read this account in other Gospels to see, how story changes. Can we base a religion on 2000 years old stories, which have been changing in even in recent centuries, right in front of our eyes?
In Gospel of Matthew also ‘reed’ in King James version has been changed to ‘staff’ in New International version in chapter 27.
Please note that whatever this whipping was, Jesus was able to carry his cross after this process, so why is his surviving three hours on the cross after that such a stretch that we need to invoke the most extraordinary resurrection, rather than resuscitation? One never seen otherwise in human history and the other seen every day in modern hospitals. You do the math. To me two plus two is four not five!
After reading 65 questions about the crucification of Jesus any body can understand that the discussion is totally based on logic, historic facts( including Gospel ) and at this time any conclusive wisdom by any sensible educated man.
But when you read all the responses you can clearly see the responses from Christian friends are total faith based. We as civilized people respect their faith and vision under its influence. Still I can say that they do not see any logic or reality in this case or even common sense. At this time religious Christians who are directly or indirectly attached to church authorities have no choice but to believe this concept of solvation, trinity and sacrifice of no sense.
At present western countries Christian population is living a life style has no room for any God authority. Jesus is the only hope for them that if there is any life after death they will go to heaven due to Jesus sacrifice. Whether he understand it or not. He does not have time to follow living style of righteous ones. Why bother praying five times a day, no drinking, faithful to your marriage, no gambling, no interest system and no free sex society.
They will just bring some meaningless quotation from Gospel in front of all arguments.
Who cares that Pilot the judge was friendly toward Jesus and still his soldiers beating Jesus mercilessly with out any reason just to please Jewish preachers according to MelGibson a drunk Holliwood movie maker.
These Christian like their evangelist Pat Robertson believe more on Holly Wood than common sense.
At this time all churches including Vetican are multitrillion dollar business. So basically very few sensible people will look at this.
While majority of the people of world will not bother to look at this discussion. They are too busy with their issues of money and extreme poverty.
So you can try but it is in the hands of God to show them the truth.
this discussion and the 65 reasons are a waste of time since no one can prove or disprove the bible. The basis of christian life is believing without seeing. I believe Jesus was crucified,died and rose from the dead. my belief in this has been for the last two years, since the holy spirit came into my heart. So no matter the discussion or theories nothing will cahnge what i know
Dear Frank, but, why do not you also believe that John F Kennedy was also crucified along his brother Robert Kennedy, one head up and the other head down? They died side by side and will rise three centuries from now.
They died for all the non-Christians.
So, now the loving God has forgiven everyone!
Zia Shah, why are you mocking a reasonable answer? …
There are no witnesses of such death of Kennedys, while there are witnesses of the death of resurrection of Jesus. All in the Bible, the New Testament. As Mr Frank says, there is no way anyone can prove the events that happened, or believe in them in heart, the text itself has been historically proven without doubts. Nothing has been changed in the Bible we know today.
NB Nothing legitimises using one part freely and discarding another. If you claim the text has been distorted, how do you know WHICH ONE HAS…?
Everything written above does not prove anything, just that the author has a theory and finds random quotes to confirm it, taking them out of context and not understanding anything of the 270 prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament, nor the human nature of Jesus (so He was afraid too as he was A MAN… same flesh and blood as we are, and God’s dignity in the same time… a mystery, yes, but the historical fact described in the Bible by the witnesses, starting with the gospel of John 1.14 – the same Bible you quote above – “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”)
I am not mocking, I was just making a point for my brother Frank that faith cannot be blind and has to be based on truths, which are supported by reasons.
The witnesses that you present are from stories of 2000 years ago. It is not that we are getting first hand account. None of the Gospel writers of the canonical Gospels were eye witnesses. I am afraid that your evidence is hearsay, at best, not worthy of basing a religion on.
Logically one should accept that extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proofs, which are not forth coming, for death and resurrection of Jesus, may peace be on him.
Please consider that benefit of any doubt should go to resuscitation, which we see on an every day basis in hospitals and not to resurrection, which none of us has every witnessed.
Peace.
Point 31 the verse from Mark 14:36 is only partially quoted as other verses in these points are also. Mark 14:36 And He said “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless NOT WHAT I WILL, BUT WHAT YOU WILL. Christ’ spirit was willing but his flesh was weak, His Spirit is of God which is holy and perfect, but His flesh is of this world and man, fearful and weak. But through His Spirit flesh is overcome and the Father’s will is done.
If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?
@Rafiq: This is the mystery of the Trinity – they are three different persons, but one God… There are several verses in the Bible showing it, starting from the baptism in Jordan when the Holy Trinity was revealed for the first time.
Jesus was the same flesh and blood as we are, not half-man only.
Nevertheless one needs faith to see it this way, there is no way in the world that can ‘prove’ it… pretty much in the same way one must believe that Gabriel came to Mohammad, as noone can actually ‘prove’ it logically. Our faith in the Trinity bases on the Bible.
The Koran says “Lakum Deenakum Walle Yadeen.” For you your religion and for me my religion. My Christian brothers dont argue with unbelievers llike the Ahmadies lest you become like them. Despite the Koran speaking of resurrection all the time but these Ahmadies do not believe either in the death nor in the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is the greatest proof that resurrection is a reality but the Ahmadies are bent upon disproving the Koran. Leave them alone as to argue with them is to dilute your own beliefs.
Chris Mike, New Delhi, 14/07/13
Dear Christopher, Jesus-Isa came to save the lost. When we cut off another religion because of what we think they believe, we cut ourselves off from correction that may be in our understanding and we have no power to help cleanse understanding of our Qur’an and the Bible. I never got the impression they are trying to disprove the Qur’an.
The primary message of the Qur’an is to follow the Torah and Gospel. Torah contains Ten Commandments written in stone. We all need correction to follow the Sabbaths of no work commanded as written, the 7th day; of Exodus 20:8-11, and Sabbaths of no work around God’s commanded memorial feasts of Leviticus 23. Read them and decide if you want to believe God or your religious leaders who have passed down errors from long ago. I speak to people of all religions, because there is only one God and if He spoke words to you; they are in agreement with the Bible.
Isaiah 8:20 New King James Version (NKJV)(Biblegateway.com-many languages)
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Marie Devine wrote “The primary message of the Qur’an is to follow the Torah and Gospel” is absolutely incorrect. Quran is Final and Perfect Message for all of mankind. Quran urges Muslims ONLY to accept the teachings of Gospel and Torah that DOES NOT contradict its message. So Muslims utilize Quran, the Perfect and Final Divine Scripture, as a tool to valide and accept the portions of Gospel and Torah and rejects those portions that contradicts the Quranic message or teachings.
Muslims are NOT blind followers they are exhorted by Quran to reflect on the creations of God and think over its messages, laws and injunction as it provides ample reason and examples as to why Quranic messages should be followed. See examples below:
No incongruity canst thou see in the creation of the Gracious God. Then look again: Seest thou any flaw? [Holy Quran 67:4]
And no soul can believe except by the permission of Allah. And He makes His wrath descend on those who will not use their reason.[10:101]
And He has pressed into service for you the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; and the stars too have been pressed into service by His command. Surely, in that are Signs for a people who make use of their reason. [16:13]
And what reason have I that I should not worship Him Who has created me, and unto Whom you will be brought back? [36:23]
That is because they are a people who are devoid of all reason. [59:14]
And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things. [5:117]
Finally, the above verse is one of the 30 verses of the Holy Quran that proves that Jesus, may God be pleased with him, died a natural death. So Muslims are urged to believe in the fact that like all human beings, Jesus died a natural death and he should be accepted and respected as a Prophet of God and no more.
Dear Brother Mirza,
I believe you are following a religious leader who was taught by those deceived before him. All holy books point to following the law of God. Torah is the law of God through Moses. All things must agree with that because it is full of guidance “out of the mouth of God.” Prophet Muhammad was as a president’s seal to confirm the Bible; he cannot then denounce following Moses and Jesus and the Bible. If you give me the scripture to prove all things are to agree with Qur’an, we can come to correct understanding of it; for we both seek truth, I am sure.
Biblegateway.com Isaiah 8:20, Matthew 4:4
Isaiah 8:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
If the Qur’an is correctly written, the words “the Book” must refer to the Bible, since there was no book until after Prophet Muhammad died. The Bible has many witnesses of what God said, the Qur’an is just one more. God proves all things out of the mouth of two or three prophets. Those things which are not in agreement with the Bible have been added by evil men wanting to deceive. There will be no other witness written in another book. (Noah was not 950 years old at flood; and his three sons were with him, 8 people were saved. Abraham’s wife did not cry at news of a son, she laughed. Moses was on a mountain, not in a valley when God told him to take off his shoes.) Search Biblegateway.com or google etc.
Quran.com, Al-Ma’idah 5:67, 68, Sahih International
O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.
Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
7:157, 159
Sahih International
7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him – it is those who will be the successful.
7:158 Sahih International
Say, [O Muhammad], “O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death.” So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow HIM that you may be guided.
Jesus neither died on the Cross nor in Kashmir. He is very much alive with his Father in Heaven where he was called up by Him. This is confirmed by the very Koran by which the Ahmadies swear.
Chris Mike, New Delhi, 16/08/13
Jesus’ death, as the one sacrifice acceptable to God for the restoration of the broken relationship between man and God (for which mankind is entirely to blame) is at the core of the Christian faith. His bodily resurrection is never in doubt in the New Testament and the apostles never doubted it once they had met their resurrected Messiah. It was only in the following years of the early church when teaching started to appear that he was only a resurrected Spirit.
The attempt made here to dispute the claims of the New Testament that Jesus did not actually die on the cross are highly offensive to the Christian. Jesus is the Lord of the Universe, one with Father and Spirit (yes.. one God) the Saviour of all mankind and the truth of this is made clear in the New Testament. I suggest that if those responsible for posting this article sincerely want to know the truth about God (and Jesus) they pray, asking Him to reveal himself in all his truth to them.. without presuming that what they have been brought up to believe is indeed the truth. Jesus has given me freedom, joy, peace and certain hope of eternal life with Him in heaven. He is my reason for everything I do and every choice I make in life.
I once prayed that God would reveal the truth about himself to me after examining many different ways of thinking about Him and he lead me to open the Bible and read the wonderful story of grace. He captivated my heart and today leads me in the way of righteousness. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I do for Him but everything to do with what He has done for me, in dying as a sacrifice for my sins and rising to new life conquering the power of death and bringing eternal life to all who will believe in Him.
I pray that you will know the joy of complete acceptance by God, that faith in His death and resurrection brings. I have. There is nothing that compares with this.