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This post was originally made by Ghulam Ahmed Rabbi
Author: Imam I. H. Kauser, National President of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Australia
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1. Why crucifixion?
Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.
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BBC Documentary: Did Jesus Die On the Cross?
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2. Who wanted him to be crucified?
Two of Jesus’ disciples commented (in Luke 24:20) as follows:
And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. (Luke 24:20)
They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the Governor said what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying Let him be crucified…. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (Matt 27: 22-25)
3. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. (John 19:6)
The Jews answered him (Pilate), We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (John 19:7)
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Suggested Reads:
Christianity: A Journey From Facts to Fiction
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4. One incident and many aspects?
- Romans took it as punishment of sedition.
- The Jews made it as a punishment of blasphemy.
- Jesus considers it a killing, when one of his disciples betrayed him.
- Christians think a sacrifice presented for our salvation.
Who is right?
5. Why Jesus was hiding?
That’s why the Jews paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas giving them the necessary information about Jesus.
…Neither go into town, nor tell it to any in the town. (Mark 8: 26)
And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. ((Mark 8: 30)
6. Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:
Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)
…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)
7. God always hears his prayers and his prayers were heard
And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)
8. An Angel was sent to strengthen Jesus?
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22: 43-44)
9. Pilate delays in judgment
Pilate intentionally delayed in giving his verdict and did not deliver his judgment until and unless he was sure that due to the Sabbath, Jesus would be on the cross for only a few hours. Jesus a thirty-three years young person was on the cross for only few (3-6) hours.
10. Pilate’s complete favor to Jesus
Pilate was in complete favor of Jesus, considering him innocent, and for his wife’s dream, was trying to save his life. That’s why Pilate wanted to use his special right to free one person, but the Jews did not let him do it.
Pilate said unto them, whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas or Jesus…. But the chief Priests and the elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The Governor answered and said unto them, whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said Barabbas. Matt 27: 17-21)
11. Pilate’s wife sees a dream to save Jesus
When he sat down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.” (Matt 27:19)
Why was this dream was against the purpose of the advent of Jesus, to give his life on the cross? Her dream should have been that crucify him immediately. Let him finish his work. But her dream was against it. Although her dream was so special that it was mentioned in the Bible.
12. Pilate finds him “Not guilty”
… Pilate … he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person. (Matt 27:24)
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Click to read Prophet Confucius: His testimony for one God and against Pauline Dogma
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13. Earthquake, eclipse & a storm – A sign of God’s disliking & anger
An earthquake, eclipse of Sun and a Storm, all three occurred just after the crucifixion is a clear sign of God’s anger.
Now from sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (Matt 27:45)
…the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. (Matt 27: 51)
14. Pilate marveled
And Pilate marveled if he were already dead. (Mark 15: 44)
When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.
15. The other two (thieves) next to Jesus were still alive so they broke their legs
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. (John 19: 32)
16. Blood and Water – a great sign of Jesus’ life
When a soldier pierced a spear in Jesus’ side, blood and water gushed out from his body, with full pressure, is a sign and a witness that Jesus’ heart was still pumping and he was alive
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. (John 19:34)
Why coming of blood and water is so important that the narrator of the incident specially describes:
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. (John 19:35)
The person has put all stress on the truth of this witness, because of the great importance of it.
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross: http://t.co/ohKLP6hTHl
— O J DEEN (@JAMALDEEN2010) March 30, 2013
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17. Why the soldiers checked Jesus alive or dead, piercing him a spears. What was the criteria, then to recognize?
The concept that one of the soldiers pierced Jesus a spear to check him, either he is alive or not, does not make any sense until and unless there was really a way of checking this way. Piercing Jesus a spear or some other way? What was that? How did they do it? Because one of the soldiers pierced a spear in Jesus’ body. Not to check his life or death. Otherwise they should have done the same with other two also.
18. Jesus legs were not broken
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs: (John 19:33)
19. Jesus was not buried in the grave
The Jewish custom for the last thousands of years was to bury the deceased in the ground. Because the disciples knew the predictions, which were made earlier by Jesus Christ, they kept Jesus’ body in a sepulcher. If they had buried him in a grave, he would have died. But his disciples placed him in a roomy “Sepulcher?” Rather then burying him in the ground according to the Jewish custom and traditions.
20. Neither Jews nor Christians are sure about Jesus’ death on the cross
There was a very strong earthquake, a storm and an eclipse of sun just after the crucifixion of Jesus, that made all Jews and Romans run away from the sight. That is why; neither Jews nor the Christians are sure about the death of Jesus on the cross but a gesture.
21. The stone on the sepulcher was removed
(For a spirit, does not need to remove the stone)
Jesus forbade Mary Magdalene to touch him.
Touch me not. (John 20:17)
Why?
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Click to read: Prophet Zoroaster : A Witness against Pauline Dogma
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22. Jesus said, “ He has not ascended yet. What did he really mean?
Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. (John 20:17)
What are the real meanings of ascension here, when Jesus said to Mary “I am not yet ascended to my Father.”
Certainly, it was understood and very clear without any doubt that Jesus had not ascended yet, while he was standing just in front of her. Then why Jesus said that he was not ascended yet?
23. Mary did not react, when she saw Jesus alive. Why?
24. Disciples were terrified seeing Jesus. (Luke 24: 39)
25. Jesus ate food, in the presence of his disciples.
… he said unto them, have ye here any meet? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24:41-42)
Jesus saith unto them, come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who are thou? Knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. (John 21: 12-13)
A spirit does not need any food but our physical body, which becomes weak after a while, without having food. Why Jesus needed food, if he had gone back to his original body of God.
For forty days he was meeting his disciples to assure them that he was alive and now going to the lost sheep of house of Israel, as he promised and assigned by God like Jonah was assigned to the Nin-e-viets.
…many infallible proofs being seen of them for forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)
26. Jesus never showed himself to the Jews (who challenged him) after he was saved from the accursed death of cross.
27. How come Jesus never said “I was dead and now I am alive?”
28. Jesus’ prediction about his sign to be very similar to the sign of Jonah
Jesus predicted his sign would be similar to the sign of Jonas.
An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s bally; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:39-40)
This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Nin-e-vites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation…for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Luke 11:29-32)
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the bally of the fish three days and three nights. (Jonah 1:17)
And Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. (Jonah 2:10)
And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it preaching that I bid thee. And Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh. (Jonah 3:1-3)
- Jonas entered into the belly of whale alive– Jesus died on the cross and entered in the heart of the earth dead.
- Jonas remained alive in the bally of whale. – Jesus Remained dead.
- Jonas came out alive bodily. – Jesus came out in spirit.
- Jonas stayed three days and three nights in the bally of whale. – Jesus one day and two nights.
- Jonas went back to his people. – Jesus went back to heaven. Without fulfilling the promise which he made earlier, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt 15:24)
Jesus should have gone to the lost tribe of Israel, as Jonas went to his people “Nin-e-vites”, not to heaven.
29. Appearance of an Angel, saying, why, you looking for a living person into the dead.
And it come to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seeketh ye the living among the dead. (Luke 24:4-5)
And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. (Luke 24:23)
30. The stone of tomb was removed
It was a physical body not a spiritual one:
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher. (Luke 24: 2)
31. Jesus’ prayers against his death on the cross
Jesus prayed again and over again, saying, O God, take this cup away from him. Why he prayed against the purpose of his advent?
“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me….” (Mark 14:36)
If his escape from the death on the cross was not possible then why Jesus was praying for it? Didn’t he know?
32. Jesus awakening his disciples, requesting for special prayers for his safety
“…saith to his disciples, sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder…. And began to be sorrowful and very heavy… And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and said unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray…” (Matt 26: 36-41)
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Click to read: Prophet Buddha: A Witness against Pauline Dogma
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33. Jesus’ in flesh and bones after he had risen
Jesus showing his hands and feet to his disciples, proving and arguing them, that he was alive bodily.
“They were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts are in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see for a spirit hath no flesh and bones, as you see me have…. he shewed them his hands and his feet.” (Luke 24:37-40)
34. Why Jesus needed the body (Flesh) again?
35. Jesus’ wounds- a great sign of his survival
Jesus through showing his wounds to his disciples was proving that he was alive bodily:
The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he (Thomas) said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of his nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe… Then he said to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: be not faithless, but believing. (John 20: 25-27)
A Spirit can’t have the wounds. It means he was alive bodily.
Why Jesus addressed Thomas “not to be faithless but believing? Jesus advised Thomas to have faith, but in which and what? Yes! Faith in the fulfillment of the promise of God saving Jesus from the accursed death on the cross which Jews had designed for him.
Why Jesus had a physical body after he had risen from the dead? Why this physical body still had the signs of wounds? Now there should have been nothing but his soul and spirit? Did he want to take these wounds along with him to the heavens to show them to God? If that is the case, then, we know very well, that these wounds alone did not kill him, but many other things including the cross. If he needed the proofs of his service to be presented to God, then he should have taken all his wounds including, the signs of flogging, beating, hitting, kicking, spitting and the cross (piece of wood) on which he was crucified.
36. Jesus prayers and God’s response: (Hebrews 5:7)
37. Hungry Jesus, asking for food
He ate fish and a honeycomb.
38. Jesus’ shroud: -“Shroud of Turin” a sign that Jesus was alive.
“And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth.” Matt 27:59)
39. Using 100 pounds of aloes, myrrh and some other spices on Jesus’ body, as the manner of Jews. Whether Jews use 100 pound of myrrh, aloes and some other spices at their burial? Or there were some special arrangements were made for Jesus’ safety. Nicodemus, who was a physician and a disciple of Jesus, made this special arrangement before the crucifixion of Jesus:
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to burry. (John 19:39-40)
40. Jesus said “I am going to ‘Galilee’ before the disciples.”
41. An error made by the Jews: – “….the last error shall be worse than the first.” (Matt 27:64)
Jews accepted that they had made an error. What kind of error had they made? Now they were afraid not to make another error. Did they make another error? Yes! They did.
42. Why Jews bribed the soldiers?
Jews bribed large money) the soldiers who had been assigned to guard the sepulcher.
“And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken council, they gave large money unto the soldiers.”(Matt 28:12)
They bribed the soldiers to hide the fact. What was that?
43. Empty tomb of Jesus (the sepulcher), is a great Mystery. Jesus body was not found in the sepulcher.
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Mother Mary wants all Christians to be Muslims! The Doctrine of immaculate conception
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44. Jews were afraid of a conspiracy: –
Jews were sure, even ahead of time that his disciples will definitely announce, “Jesus had been ascended to heaven” as it is mentioned:
“…Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, after three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal his him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead.”(Matt 27: 63-64)
45. Jesus’ crucifixion- a test of Jews
The crucifixion was made criteria for Jesus’ truth. The Jews at the time of crucifixion said: – “…save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.” (Matt 27:40)
“Let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.”(Matt 27:42)
“He saved others; himself he cannot save.”(Matt 27:42)
46. Could Jesus save his life? If he is God then perhaps he could. If he could then it is a suicide.
But, he was constantly pleading to God the Father for the bitter cup to be taken away.
47. Pilate’s complete favor for Jesus; _Pilate; the Governor tried his best to save Jesus’ life, because of his wife’s dream.
48. Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him- crucify him.”
“Then all say unto him, Let him be crucified.” (Matt 27:22)
49. Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose, although I am already 4000 years late, going by the Biblical calendar and time of Adam and Eve.”
50. Jesus never went to the cross happily, but in miserable situation.
51. Who compelled Jesus to be crucified and why?
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St Paul The 13th Apostle? Do Read
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52. Jesus said: “For salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22) What it means? And why only for the Jews?
53. Crucifixion – a killing in the eyes of Jesus.
Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19)
But you seek to kill me. (John 8:40)
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. (Mark 9:31)
54. Jesus complained to God, why have you forsaken me? It means, God for his safety made a promised.
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, Lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why have hast thou forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
55. In Jewish law, the “Crucifixion” was an accursed death”-
“…for he that is hanged is accursed of God” (Deut 21: 23)
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for ud: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3: 13)
56. Why the disciples of Jesus, when they met him in Galilee, still had some doubts? “…Some doubted” (Matt 28:17)
What kind of doubts and what about?
Did they have doubts about Jesus being alive and saved from the accursed death of cross or some thing else?
57. Jesus said, “Even so every good tree bringth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringth forth evil fruit.” (Matt 7:17)
How come that this heinous crime of persecuting him mercilessly brought such a good result?
58. Making his arrest is a greater sin
“Jesus answered (to Pilate); He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” (John 19:11)
How a greater sin can bring salvation to the world. Sin means, being disobedient to God, breaking His laws and commandments.
“…the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matt 26:45)
59. Jesus accursed Judas for his betrays.
Jesus said, “…but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matt 26:24)
But, it was Judas who made the salvation possible. If he had not been born, there would not have been any salvation for us.
Jesus said, “It had been good … if he had not been born.”
Why the contradiction?
60. Who can kill God? God is Holy. Nobody can kill God. God is eternal and immortal, free from the suffering of death. He is always alive. He is out of the approach of the human hands. Sinners’ hands cannot reach Him or harm Him.
If Jesus died for three days and three nights, then he is no longer eternal and hence not co-equal to God the Father.
61. Why Jesus (if he was a God) let the Jews and Romans disgrace Him and do all kind of insulting and persecution? What “The Most High” means and “God is Great.” God is not supposed to be humble and show not only humility, but actually disgrace at the hands of His enemies.
62. Jesus never mentioned that the purpose of his coming was to give his life on the cross.
63. Salvation through keeping the commandments of God:
Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing Jesus’ death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God. As it is in the Book of Matthew:
And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matt 19:16-17)
64. If salvation through crucifixion, then the credit goes to Jews, Romans & Judas
They are the Jews who demanded from the Roman Governor Pilate to put him on the cross. And Judas betrayed Jesus and made his arrest possible; otherwise Jesus was hiding in the garden of Gethsemane. Chief Priests paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas for informing the authorities for his arrest.
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Jesus wasn’t born on December then why is Christmas celebrated on 25th?
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65. A soldier saw Jesus walking, informs the chief priest
“The watch” who saw (Jesus and his disciples meeting and going) all these things, told the Chief Priest in the city.
Now when they were going (Jesus and his disciples), behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. (Matt 28: 11)
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Watch now! Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
It has tonnes of evidence put together in a very constructive way.
Day by day we are moving towards uncovering the mask of the false dogma of Christianity.
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65 Reasons to Believe #Jesus Did Not Die on the #Cross
Read more: http://t.co/dtcpARiHvd— LajnaIma’illahCanada (@LajnaCanada) January 25, 2015
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Categories: CHRISTIANITY, Easter, Highlight, Religion and Science
Dear Katy McDonald
A polite discussion to find the truth should not be offensive to friendly and open minded Christians.
Is it possible that you took the assumptions indoctrinated during your childhood to be the truth?
Please try a simple challenge by one time Christian preacher, Dan Barker:
Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension
Zia, I became a follower of Jesus as an adult having spent some time looking into what this might be and praying for God’s guidance. I was never indoctrinated as a child. Why would I read anything else about other ideas of truth and faith, when I have found the answer in Jesus.
Katy, I am glad for you. Please also advise us about which faith were you born into.
I would just like to know if anyone on here believes that Jesus was a Prophet or do you believe that also was a hoax as well.
Dear Brother Donald
Muslims may differ on many issues but they never dispute oneness of God and that there were thousands of prophets before the Prophet Muhammad, may peace be on him and that Jesus, may peace be on him, was a noble prophet, sent to the Israelites.
For katy McDonald:
It is good that you are satisfied and happy with Jesus son of Mary. We Muslims are also dedicated to him. Yo found peace in Jesus only after some searcch. Had you not taken a step, you would not have found Jesus and peace.
You are not to stop where you are now. But further open mind study is necessary. It will not harm you. It will help and you may find other friends in Jesus.
Please remember that they can be none other than Muslims, as per a divinely revealed book. No joke, no lie, no cheating.
Niether the Jews nor the Hindus or Budhists will be in praise of Jesus son of Mary. It will only be Muslims.
For Brother Donald:
There is no joke or lie. The proof is in the Quran, the divinely revealed book which is being read all over the world for the last 1400 years.
The proof is there. You can extend your hand and see the proof of the high status of Jesus son of Mary in Quran. Of course we (same as Jews) do not believe that Jesus was god or literal, begotten son of God. He could be spiritually begotten son of God like many others. No more than that.
Do not lie to the children or to the people
telling them that god came to earth
got crucified
and then floated up to heaven on a cloud
after sleeping for three days in a tomb
and being wrapped up in a shroud
zombies running here zombies running there
zombies running around every where
look there is Jesus alive again
complete with his open wound
his beard moustache and long hair
well you know the old saying folks
sin now and repent at leisure
if there is a god he will love me
if there is no god
he will know me
never.
David Fox England.
More for Brother Donald:
Jesus is described in the Quran as a word from God. He is described as a messenger (Rasool) and as a prophet (nabi). He is described as a sign for the mankind (Ayat al li Naas). He is a described as a Mercy from God ( Rehmat am minna). Jesus is described in the Quran as a Blessed person (Mubarak). He is described as having been given a book.
Jesus is described before his birth as a purified young man (Ghulam an Zakiyya).
Most of the above is found in chapter 19 of Quran.
Do you want your children or spouse to love you and when you are sick to leave you or ignore you?
Do you want your children or spouse for whom you have work hard to provide a descent living to love another person who does not do anything for them?
Love without responsibility is a hoax and love without reason is madness.
True love should enhance our reason and sense of responsibility.
The (unaltered, uncorrupted) Word of God reads as follows in 1 Corinthians 15
“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.”
And reiterates in Galatians 1…
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”
Do what is good to others the rest of your life better than spoiling one’s faith, each person will get saved by their own faith not by your instruction. The way Islam spoils the world and taring peoples dreams show your words power. i don t think All these reasons what you have mentioned are bigger than the cruelty what your cast people making Hope it shows who is worshipping the real God. have a great day
To Robert Hunt:
Your post of 28 August, please tell whose words you have presented. Are those the words of Jesus or some one else? Please indicate the name of that person. Then we will be wiser.
If those are the words of Jesus himself or any friend of Jesus, they are welcome. Please inform.
Accidentaly I came across this website and this article. I find it amusing that people of this religion quesitonand scrutinise christianity and bible so much. I am a Christian and in our churches (and I have attendeded churches across many coutnries) our pastors ever discuss muslim religion being incorrect. They teach us how to respect other religions. Our new Pope washed feet for muslim prisoners and that is our leading example. That is what Jesus was about, to love each other on this earth. Sorry, maybe off the subject a bit, but needed to say this. Just have some more acceptance for others, thats all.
Tina we respect and love all Christians, especially those who read the Muslim Times and it is out of this empathy that we want to bring them to greater truth.
You would recognize that any irrational belief holds us back.
So, please see this academic exercise in this spirit.
Peace!
Hi, just to correct my initial text, I meant to say that our pastors DON’T ever discuss muslim religion as being incorrect.
I think we will all eventually find out the truth and until then lets focus on making PEACE on this earth.
Personally, Jesus is the saviour and he died on the cross for us.
I just love arguments between adherents of competing (but closely related) mythology. It’s all fiction: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Zeus, Odin. Unfortunately these competing fictions about supposedly peaceful religions have the believers killing each other. The sooner mankind walks away from belief in fictional characters the sooner peace will occur.
Dave – right, as atheist empires never killed anyone, in Lenin and Stalin times (religion is the opium for masses!) people simply evaporated… about 100 million of them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
Tina – I’ve also given this comment, as I feel insulted that islam ‘apologetics’ focuses on… discrediting other religions… as if all they can do it define themselves in opposition to others.
why is this website focused on discrediting christianity…? don’t you have enough of your own religion books & teachings to focus on them? somehow the christians are not all about “let’s prove muslims are wrong”, we cherish our faith & tradition and it is sufficient for us
checking out the articles on this website it seems that your religion is defined by the negation of others, instead of building your case… sorry, but looks like without the christians and the Bible you would not exist…
if your religion is TRUE it will defend itself, won’t it…? you don’t need to prove everyone else is wrong… truth comes out eventually, always… think about it.
Why do muslims feel this constant need of questioning other people’s beliefs…?
Aleksandra thank you so much for your comment.
Could it be that the Muslims believe reason and rationality is on their side and they want to bring it out and share it with their cousins, the Christians and the Jews?
You said that truth eventually comes out, but, it cannot do so unless spoken of.
Truth hidden in a closet in the basement of my home will not get across to you or other readers of the Muslim Times, unless, I share it in the Muslim Times.
Yes, but speaking truth does not mean saying “you are wrong”.
The fact that someone is wrong says nothing about your truth, sorry to say…
NB why aren’t you saying “Confucius was wrong”, “Buddha was wrong” or “azteks were wrong”… would it prove in any way that Muhammad indeed got his revelation…?
No, it would not.
Christian apologetics is focused on the Bible, on the experience of the first christians, on the witnesses and the miracles they experienced. It does not base on the fact that there was some false prophet or corrupted book and we must prove it.
See, we do not believe that Jesus, may peace be on him was wrong.
Only Saint Paul misunderstood him and if you go by his teachings, you end up questioning all Jewish prophets, Confucius and Buddha.
As they never told us that Jesus is coming to die for us, take it easy!
Dear Aleksandra, please note that each religion is teaching and preaching. Preaching should be peaceful, non-abusive. The Christians come in our homes and give us a bible. They preach to us and they read out the bible for us. We are thankful.
They say that Jesus was god. He was son of God. He was begotten son of God. And so many other things..
They say that Jesus died on the cross. There are three gods and there is One God. i.e. Trinity.
We are educated. We can read the bible ourselves. In so doing, we are much impressed by the actual words of Jesus, as we read in Mathew and Luke and Mark and John. We come to know that Jesus was working to improve the life of the Jews within the Jewish law. We learn that Jesus himself said that “Not a word or dot of the law will be abrogated (nullified, disregarded).” We learn that he did not want to start a new religion. We learn that Jesus even abused and rebuked the people of his time.
But we see that Christians have abandoned the law which was supported by Jesus. Not only that, the Christians consider the law as a curse. How come?
We have a right to respectfully present our view about all these things and we ask the Christians as how was Jesus begotten? There may be a secret meaning which we never hear from church people. In Mathew chapter one, line 1, we see, “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob….” Very respectfully we ask you the manner of begetting Jesus.
How could there be three gods and one God at the same time. How could there be a man god? You must be having some rational answers to all those questions. Kindly present them here.
There are many other problems. They need to be explained. Christians have given us the bibles. Now that we ask somethings, there is no need to be upset. It is all a friendly dialogue. If you are hurt or upset then Christians should not come on our doors to give us bible lessons.
There is no disrespect. There is no wrong quotation. There is no attack on your faith. We respect and love Jesus and his mother Mary from the bottom of our heart. Prophet Muhammad and Quran has taught us to do that. We love and respect Jesus and his real friends. We do not love his enemies or those who persecuted him and his followers. We believe in One God and we do not need any Lords besides that God Almighty.
We need peace and friendship with all Christians.
Rafiq says “If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?”
dear Rafiq, this is a typical questions Muslims like to repeat thinking that it defeats the doctrine of the Trinity…
If you look at the doctrine of the Trinity, through the eyes of the author of the Koran, and then talk to some Christians about it, you will realize that Christians did at no time in history believed what the Koran says they do (or ever did). (This hypothesis in itself negates the Koran’s claim of a divine origin… but that is a topic for another day) However when the Koran talks of God giving birth to a son through Mary, even the Christians laugh at this concept, not only for it’s obvious error, but because it is an unfair representation of what Christians truly believe about the Trinity.
“If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?”
The doctrine of the incarnation in Christian teaching is that Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, added to himself human nature and became a man.
The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…..and the word became flesh and dwelt among us,” (John 1:1, 14); and, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Col. 2:9). Jesus, therefore, has two natures. He is both God and man.
Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.
As a man, Jesus needed to pray (talk to the father). When He was praying he was not praying to Himself, but to God the Father.
My purpose here is not to try to convince you that you are wrong, but to try and explain to what Christians truly believe, and why Islam should not misrepresent Christianity, because it obviously has no clue what it (the author of the Koran) is talking about
Cheers
Dear Trojan a man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.
Please think about it.
A man cannot be God at the same time.
To non-Christians persons and beings are the same, this is why we are called human beings.
Three persons in one being is a mystery. Christian philosophers have called Trinity a mystery.
So, the Christians should not try to explain. The more you explain more confusing it becomes. Christians have only one choice, to take the criticism in good humor and stay silent! Let the Muslims do the talking and see if you can understand, or choose to silently continue to believe in the mystery …
Best wishes and peace!
Zia Shah says “See, we do not believe that Jesus, may peace be on him was wrong.
Only Saint Paul misunderstood him and if you go by his teachings, you end up questioning all Jewish prophets, Confucius and Buddha.
As they never told us that Jesus is coming to die for us,…”
Mr. Shah, Stop blindly believing what your mullahs preach in the mosque every Friday. You look like an educated person, put that education to some use. Do a bit of research instead of parroting what you have heard from the likes of Zakir Naik
This was a prophecy about Christ’s death centuries before Paul.
It is a bit lengthy, but if you have any integrity, please take the time and read it very carefully and then tell me if you still think Paul had anything to do with what Christ came to fulfil…
Isaiah 53
New International Version (NIV)
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Cheers!
Zia says “Dear Trojan a man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.
Please think about it.
A man cannot be God at the same time”
Thanks for your response dear Zia, and I totally agree with your premise, but now look deeper into what you just said ” MAN CANNOT BE….”
You see I never once said, it was the humanity of Jesus that became God, but it was God who took on humanity, and you must agree that all things are possible with God. Even the Koran submits to this fact. So if this is God’s plan, who are we as humans to defy, deny or ridicule it?
…
Cheers mate … I hope we can continue to discuss.
Trojan instead of changing the topic, please first respond to my comment about Trinity above.
As regards finding Christian parallels or lack there of in other religions, let me say a few words.
I know the Christians try to find prophecies for their understanding of Jesus in the Old Testament.
But, if we take a comprehensive view and not lose the forest, as we examine a tree, in examining a couple of references, we realize that the Jews for 2000 years were devout worshipers of One God, without having heard anything about Jesus. In this sense Jesus, may peace be on him, did not add anything to pure Monotheism of One God.
Additionally, we do not hear of any suicidal mission for redemption of human race in other religious traditions of Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism or Zoroastrianism.
As regards your reference of Isaiah 53, I will write a separate article, in due course of time.
Please note that I am critical of Zakir Nayik, for many of his irrational ideas about freedom of religion and theistic evolution and do not remember ever quoting him. I find that his only strength is a good memory, which is not much in need, in this age of Google and Bing. What we need are scholars with critical thinking and ability to rectify the mistakes of the past and willingness to change, rather than bask in cheap popularity.
Incidentally, I do respect his teacher, Ahmad Deedat.
Zia, I see what you are doing now… You accuse Paul of inventing Christ’s sacrifice, yet when I negate your claims you try and tiptoe around the tulips, but fail to see admit you were wrong.
You may write volumes to try and negate Isaiah 53, but you will still be wrong, because again you are viewing it with doubt. You have already made up your mind what the conclusion is, so it is easy to write a critical article about it.
I am glad you are wise enough to see Naik is a fraud, but many Muslims will slip into many of the arguments that Niaks brings up to ridicule Christianity. So what makes them any different from Niak?
Anyway It was nice talking to you. I wish more Muslims were open to discussion like this, however if you wish to continue discussing with me you have to come here with an open mind.
It’s late GTG
Cheers
Trojan, God is All Powerful, but, not contradictory. He has revealed His attributes in the Bible and the Quran and I am sorry to say that the Christian dogma are against the dignity of God that we find in His Scriptures.
Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of America, wrote about vicarious atonement, knocking it out in a single paragraph:
He describes the alleged Fall of man in the following words, exposing the irrationality of the idea:
A woman, who was not even the first woman, ate an apple and the whole of mankind is condemned for millennia, yet the God of Christianity is allegedly more loving than that of Islam or Judaism?
Reference: Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.
Trojan, enough discussion here in this post between two of us. We will meet again in some other post in a few days. Peace!
“man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.
Please think about it.
A man cannot be God at the same time”
Yes, he can. Like water can be water, or ice or steam. The same substance, three different physical bodies.
NB don’t rey to understand this mystery with brain, it is not possible. God is beyound our human brain. Can you explain with logic the fact that angels exist and revealed themselevs in the cave to Mohammad? NO. You trust witness and the fruits (somehow you do, your right, I don’t trust this witness nor his fruits)
We trust the word from the Bible and the witnesses, who saw Jesus before death and after resurrection (all New Testament) – who you don’t trust
But this is not the question of logic or brain, only faith. SO in your own interest focus on yours, not on trying to provie others wrong
Dear Aleksandra, the Gospel writers were not eye-witnesses, so you are basing a very counter-intuitive religion, on hearsay evidence from 2000 years ago.
Please think about it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
For a moment just think about the possibility, could the Christian dogma be wrong and is there a better truth out there and then weigh pros and cons.
Otherwise, it becomes a constant reassertion.
Peace!
Zia says..”the Gospel writers were not eye-witnesses, so you are basing a very counter-intuitive religion, on hearsay evidence from 2000 years ago…”
Zia, The same can be said about the Koran… I can show you ample of proof that the material found in the Koran was borrowed from various sources available at the time…. should you not be following the same reasoning?
Zia says..” Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs….”
Most definitely, so let us apply that to the Koran, Muslims claim it to be the word of God Verbatim…. This is a major claim we require some extraordinary proofs for such an extraordinary claim. So far Muslims have fallen short.
Zia says…”For a moment just think about the possibility, could the Christian dogma be wrong and is there a better truth out there..”
If you are implying that Islam is that truth, then you yourself have not looked outside the box…
…
I am amazed and muted to see and read such pathetic, irrational and insane replies and comments ….just wondering that in 21st century of information such views still exist….what a world we are living……
Jesus is dead its proved from biblical & historical accounts and now scientifically as well….its waste of time to discuss this matter. What should be discussed is what is the future of Christianity in wake of present circumstances when he should have been descended back but he has been taking overtime more than 1 century.
Guess you are confusing yourself while trying to convince,You cant argue that we christians are based on faith and believing for proof and you muslims are based on real facts for proof whereas you are speaking all good done by God and His work unto the world of which am very sure none neither you has ever seen God but only by faith and believe in His work and existence.So stop argueing on faith as an excption. I BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS AS HIS SON,MY SAVIOUR WHO DIED FOR MY SINS.
These 65 prooves are based on human thinking ofwhich even the writers of the bible never used their own thinking but they were guided by the holy spirit.
(LET ME REASON LIKE YOU) Again even personally in your own thinking and argueing it out,how dare comfortably can you argue out jesus never died after all that toture and again being pierced and bleeding that much and for all that long and with no medical attendance,how can a human being survive all this???? and still walk 70 miles?? cumon! STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE!!
The torture before crucifixion has been exaggerated in recent years. Here is the account of the Gospel of Mark from King James Version, which gives a more realistic picture:
In the Gospel of Luke there is no torture between the verdict and crucifixion.
Dear Ken, is it possible that you read all of the above with your pre-conceived ideas, otherwise there is plenty in here, to make you think out of the box.
As readers we should always follow Sir Francis Bacon’s advice, “Read not to contradict … but to weigh and consider.”
Otherwise, we remain as ignorant after reading something as we were before reading it.
Get over it. This is our faith. Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.
Just keep it simple.
You only need one reason.
So did Moses, Buddha, Krishna and John the Baptist? They rose from the dead, I know for certain, as I have perfect faith in this!
Good on you Zia you keep on believing what you want to believe. Do you believe in Tinkerbell the Fairy also rising from the dead as well? Why do you feel the need to kick up a big dust storm and add to a confused state of mind. Remember your point of view is none of my business nor is it the business of 1.25 billion other Christians.
Jesus Died and rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father. Simple articles of faith that I affirm every day in my life.
…
Keep believing a dead god who could not save himself from an accursed death on cross.
Seems this feed has gone dead.
Maybe Zia has already risen from the dead along with Mirza Ghulam Rabbi the poster and the Author: Imam I. H. Kauser.
When you push versions of the truth you eventually run out of wind for your sail.
The Truth is Jesus Died and rose from the dead and for 40 days he mingled with the apostles before He ascended to Heaven to be with His Father. No matter how much hollow discourse you throw up at the One Reason for the existence of Christianity we don’t go away.
dead feed? Well, each side has made its comments and then the time comes for ‘for you your religion and for me my religion’. Other readers can make up their mind of whose side is more logical.
I know this will probably get lost in all the comments, but when I’m home alone I like to go out in my garden and cover myself in dirt and pretend I’m a carrot. A rising from the dead experience
Carrot: Does that explain a lot?
@Mike Wyatt!
So you are convinced or in state of conviction that Jesus rose from dead and alive on the heavens……..and not ready to concede to any rationale and evidence………OK that is fine………….
Could you please write this here on this thread/feed?
“I swear by God……that my beliefs are true and nothing but true and if it is lie, God’s curse be on me”
Can you do that? I know you would never do that.
When in a difficult spot the Christian apologists want to change the subject, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly.
Often they want to talk about the loving God of Christianity, as if God of Islam is not loving. They feel that in this area they can use their rhetoric more effectively and confuse the naive readers.
Those of our Christian friends, who are tempted to do that now, may comment in the following post:
The Gracious, the Merciful – God is Love!
Of course I wouldn’t do that because I believe in a Loving God….and a merciful God. My God would never curse anyone.The thought of cursing and damning is foreign to me. …
Perhaps you should go on your knees for playing God and making judgments and holding others to oaths that are hollow and empty sounding.
…
When in a difficult spot the __________apologists
(insert Muslim)
want to change the subject, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly.
A useful Interchangeable phrase to use at parties
I am still waiting for the difficult bit Zia……Please let me know when it is coming.
It seems to require of you 65 reasons to dismantle other people’s faith. Why did you stop at the number 65 ? I’m sure you could have found one or two more to stick on the stack. I have said repeatedly there is only one reason which you blindly miss. I will repeat if you missed it.
God is love He sent His only Son Jesus to die and rise again and to bring us new life.
While that may defy your sense of logic it makes perfectly good sense to 1.25 billion Christians. All the best at chipping away with your hollow discourses. They say Catholics make wonderful converts to Islam because they already have a sense of the divine. However you will have to find the ones who are gullible , bewildered and most easily lead.
…
Discussion in this thread has reached its natural conclusion and we have arrived, where Soren Kierkegaard and President Thomas Jefferson reached centuries before.
Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, one of the leading Christian apologists of his time, confessed, the quagmire between Christianity and rationality, in no uncertain terms:
President Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Smith, in 1822:
Christian missionaries use logic and reason, only for bait and switch, because their real emphasis is on ‘faith’ only and their biggest tools are not rational dialogue and debate but propaganda and advertisement.
There is very high likelihood that I will delete any further comments in this thread.
Peace!
Here is another website that show Jesus was a man NOT a God or son of God. He died a natural death and here is his tomb.
http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php/en/
Ahmadi Muslims hold the unique belief that Jesus (peace be upon him) survived the crucifixion and travelled towards India to continue his ministry among the Lost Tribes of Israel. Furthermore, they claim that his tomb, containing his body, has been recently re-discovered in India where it can be seen to this day. Ahmadi Muslims also assert that this belief is not only upheld by the Holy Quran and the Sayings of Muhammad (sa), but even by the Holy Bible itself.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/