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This post was originally made by Ghulam Ahmed Rabbi
Author: Imam I. H. Kauser, National President of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Australia
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1. Why crucifixion?
Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.
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2. Who wanted him to be crucified?
Two of Jesus’ disciples commented (in Luke 24:20) as follows:
And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. (Luke 24:20)
They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the Governor said what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying Let him be crucified…. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (Matt 27: 22-25)
3. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. (John 19:6)
The Jews answered him (Pilate), We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (John 19:7)
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4. One incident and many aspects?
- Romans took it as punishment of sedition.
- The Jews made it as a punishment of blasphemy.
- Jesus considers it a killing, when one of his disciples betrayed him.
- Christians think a sacrifice presented for our salvation.
Who is right?
5. Why Jesus was hiding?
That’s why the Jews paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas giving them the necessary information about Jesus.
…Neither go into town, nor tell it to any in the town. (Mark 8: 26)
And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. ((Mark 8: 30)
6. Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:
Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)
…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)
7. God always hears his prayers and his prayers were heard
And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)
8. An Angel was sent to strengthen Jesus?
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22: 43-44)
9. Pilate delays in judgment
Pilate intentionally delayed in giving his verdict and did not deliver his judgment until and unless he was sure that due to the Sabbath, Jesus would be on the cross for only a few hours. Jesus a thirty-three years young person was on the cross for only few (3-6) hours.
10. Pilate’s complete favor to Jesus
Pilate was in complete favor of Jesus, considering him innocent, and for his wife’s dream, was trying to save his life. That’s why Pilate wanted to use his special right to free one person, but the Jews did not let him do it.
Pilate said unto them, whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas or Jesus…. But the chief Priests and the elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The Governor answered and said unto them, whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said Barabbas. Matt 27: 17-21)
11. Pilate’s wife sees a dream to save Jesus
When he sat down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.” (Matt 27:19)
Why was this dream was against the purpose of the advent of Jesus, to give his life on the cross? Her dream should have been that crucify him immediately. Let him finish his work. But her dream was against it. Although her dream was so special that it was mentioned in the Bible.
12. Pilate finds him “Not guilty”
… Pilate … he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person. (Matt 27:24)
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Click to read Prophet Confucius: His testimony for one God and against Pauline Dogma
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13. Earthquake, eclipse & a storm – A sign of God’s disliking & anger
An earthquake, eclipse of Sun and a Storm, all three occurred just after the crucifixion is a clear sign of God’s anger.
Now from sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (Matt 27:45)
…the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. (Matt 27: 51)
14. Pilate marveled
And Pilate marveled if he were already dead. (Mark 15: 44)
When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.
15. The other two (thieves) next to Jesus were still alive so they broke their legs
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. (John 19: 32)
16. Blood and Water – a great sign of Jesus’ life
When a soldier pierced a spear in Jesus’ side, blood and water gushed out from his body, with full pressure, is a sign and a witness that Jesus’ heart was still pumping and he was alive
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. (John 19:34)
Why coming of blood and water is so important that the narrator of the incident specially describes:
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. (John 19:35)
The person has put all stress on the truth of this witness, because of the great importance of it.
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross: http://t.co/ohKLP6hTHl
— O J DEEN (@JAMALDEEN2010) March 30, 2013
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17. Why the soldiers checked Jesus alive or dead, piercing him a spears. What was the criteria, then to recognize?
The concept that one of the soldiers pierced Jesus a spear to check him, either he is alive or not, does not make any sense until and unless there was really a way of checking this way. Piercing Jesus a spear or some other way? What was that? How did they do it? Because one of the soldiers pierced a spear in Jesus’ body. Not to check his life or death. Otherwise they should have done the same with other two also.
18. Jesus legs were not broken
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs: (John 19:33)
19. Jesus was not buried in the grave
The Jewish custom for the last thousands of years was to bury the deceased in the ground. Because the disciples knew the predictions, which were made earlier by Jesus Christ, they kept Jesus’ body in a sepulcher. If they had buried him in a grave, he would have died. But his disciples placed him in a roomy “Sepulcher?” Rather then burying him in the ground according to the Jewish custom and traditions.
20. Neither Jews nor Christians are sure about Jesus’ death on the cross
There was a very strong earthquake, a storm and an eclipse of sun just after the crucifixion of Jesus, that made all Jews and Romans run away from the sight. That is why; neither Jews nor the Christians are sure about the death of Jesus on the cross but a gesture.
21. The stone on the sepulcher was removed
(For a spirit, does not need to remove the stone)
Jesus forbade Mary Magdalene to touch him.
Touch me not. (John 20:17)
Why?
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Click to read: Prophet Zoroaster : A Witness against Pauline Dogma
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22. Jesus said, “ He has not ascended yet. What did he really mean?
Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. (John 20:17)
What are the real meanings of ascension here, when Jesus said to Mary “I am not yet ascended to my Father.”
Certainly, it was understood and very clear without any doubt that Jesus had not ascended yet, while he was standing just in front of her. Then why Jesus said that he was not ascended yet?
23. Mary did not react, when she saw Jesus alive. Why?
24. Disciples were terrified seeing Jesus. (Luke 24: 39)
25. Jesus ate food, in the presence of his disciples.
… he said unto them, have ye here any meet? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24:41-42)
Jesus saith unto them, come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who are thou? Knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. (John 21: 12-13)
A spirit does not need any food but our physical body, which becomes weak after a while, without having food. Why Jesus needed food, if he had gone back to his original body of God.
For forty days he was meeting his disciples to assure them that he was alive and now going to the lost sheep of house of Israel, as he promised and assigned by God like Jonah was assigned to the Nin-e-viets.
…many infallible proofs being seen of them for forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)
26. Jesus never showed himself to the Jews (who challenged him) after he was saved from the accursed death of cross.
27. How come Jesus never said “I was dead and now I am alive?”
28. Jesus’ prediction about his sign to be very similar to the sign of Jonah
Jesus predicted his sign would be similar to the sign of Jonas.
An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s bally; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:39-40)
This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Nin-e-vites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation…for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Luke 11:29-32)
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the bally of the fish three days and three nights. (Jonah 1:17)
And Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. (Jonah 2:10)
And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it preaching that I bid thee. And Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh. (Jonah 3:1-3)
- Jonas entered into the belly of whale alive– Jesus died on the cross and entered in the heart of the earth dead.
- Jonas remained alive in the bally of whale. – Jesus Remained dead.
- Jonas came out alive bodily. – Jesus came out in spirit.
- Jonas stayed three days and three nights in the bally of whale. – Jesus one day and two nights.
- Jonas went back to his people. – Jesus went back to heaven. Without fulfilling the promise which he made earlier, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt 15:24)
Jesus should have gone to the lost tribe of Israel, as Jonas went to his people “Nin-e-vites”, not to heaven.
29. Appearance of an Angel, saying, why, you looking for a living person into the dead.
And it come to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seeketh ye the living among the dead. (Luke 24:4-5)
And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. (Luke 24:23)
30. The stone of tomb was removed
It was a physical body not a spiritual one:
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher. (Luke 24: 2)
31. Jesus’ prayers against his death on the cross
Jesus prayed again and over again, saying, O God, take this cup away from him. Why he prayed against the purpose of his advent?
“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me….” (Mark 14:36)
If his escape from the death on the cross was not possible then why Jesus was praying for it? Didn’t he know?
32. Jesus awakening his disciples, requesting for special prayers for his safety
“…saith to his disciples, sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder…. And began to be sorrowful and very heavy… And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and said unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray…” (Matt 26: 36-41)
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Click to read: Prophet Buddha: A Witness against Pauline Dogma
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33. Jesus’ in flesh and bones after he had risen
Jesus showing his hands and feet to his disciples, proving and arguing them, that he was alive bodily.
“They were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts are in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see for a spirit hath no flesh and bones, as you see me have…. he shewed them his hands and his feet.” (Luke 24:37-40)
34. Why Jesus needed the body (Flesh) again?
35. Jesus’ wounds- a great sign of his survival
Jesus through showing his wounds to his disciples was proving that he was alive bodily:
The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he (Thomas) said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of his nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe… Then he said to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: be not faithless, but believing. (John 20: 25-27)
A Spirit can’t have the wounds. It means he was alive bodily.
Why Jesus addressed Thomas “not to be faithless but believing? Jesus advised Thomas to have faith, but in which and what? Yes! Faith in the fulfillment of the promise of God saving Jesus from the accursed death on the cross which Jews had designed for him.
Why Jesus had a physical body after he had risen from the dead? Why this physical body still had the signs of wounds? Now there should have been nothing but his soul and spirit? Did he want to take these wounds along with him to the heavens to show them to God? If that is the case, then, we know very well, that these wounds alone did not kill him, but many other things including the cross. If he needed the proofs of his service to be presented to God, then he should have taken all his wounds including, the signs of flogging, beating, hitting, kicking, spitting and the cross (piece of wood) on which he was crucified.
36. Jesus prayers and God’s response: (Hebrews 5:7)
37. Hungry Jesus, asking for food
He ate fish and a honeycomb.
38. Jesus’ shroud: -“Shroud of Turin” a sign that Jesus was alive.
“And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth.” Matt 27:59)
39. Using 100 pounds of aloes, myrrh and some other spices on Jesus’ body, as the manner of Jews. Whether Jews use 100 pound of myrrh, aloes and some other spices at their burial? Or there were some special arrangements were made for Jesus’ safety. Nicodemus, who was a physician and a disciple of Jesus, made this special arrangement before the crucifixion of Jesus:
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to burry. (John 19:39-40)
40. Jesus said “I am going to ‘Galilee’ before the disciples.”
41. An error made by the Jews: – “….the last error shall be worse than the first.” (Matt 27:64)
Jews accepted that they had made an error. What kind of error had they made? Now they were afraid not to make another error. Did they make another error? Yes! They did.
42. Why Jews bribed the soldiers?
Jews bribed large money) the soldiers who had been assigned to guard the sepulcher.
“And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken council, they gave large money unto the soldiers.”(Matt 28:12)
They bribed the soldiers to hide the fact. What was that?
43. Empty tomb of Jesus (the sepulcher), is a great Mystery. Jesus body was not found in the sepulcher.
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44. Jews were afraid of a conspiracy: –
Jews were sure, even ahead of time that his disciples will definitely announce, “Jesus had been ascended to heaven” as it is mentioned:
“…Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, after three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal his him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead.”(Matt 27: 63-64)
45. Jesus’ crucifixion- a test of Jews
The crucifixion was made criteria for Jesus’ truth. The Jews at the time of crucifixion said: – “…save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.” (Matt 27:40)
“Let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.”(Matt 27:42)
“He saved others; himself he cannot save.”(Matt 27:42)
46. Could Jesus save his life? If he is God then perhaps he could. If he could then it is a suicide.
But, he was constantly pleading to God the Father for the bitter cup to be taken away.
47. Pilate’s complete favor for Jesus; _Pilate; the Governor tried his best to save Jesus’ life, because of his wife’s dream.
48. Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him- crucify him.”
“Then all say unto him, Let him be crucified.” (Matt 27:22)
49. Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose, although I am already 4000 years late, going by the Biblical calendar and time of Adam and Eve.”
50. Jesus never went to the cross happily, but in miserable situation.
51. Who compelled Jesus to be crucified and why?
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St Paul The 13th Apostle? Do Read
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52. Jesus said: “For salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22) What it means? And why only for the Jews?
53. Crucifixion – a killing in the eyes of Jesus.
Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19)
But you seek to kill me. (John 8:40)
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. (Mark 9:31)
54. Jesus complained to God, why have you forsaken me? It means, God for his safety made a promised.
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, Lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why have hast thou forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
55. In Jewish law, the “Crucifixion” was an accursed death”-
“…for he that is hanged is accursed of God” (Deut 21: 23)
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for ud: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3: 13)
56. Why the disciples of Jesus, when they met him in Galilee, still had some doubts? “…Some doubted” (Matt 28:17)
What kind of doubts and what about?
Did they have doubts about Jesus being alive and saved from the accursed death of cross or some thing else?
57. Jesus said, “Even so every good tree bringth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringth forth evil fruit.” (Matt 7:17)
How come that this heinous crime of persecuting him mercilessly brought such a good result?
58. Making his arrest is a greater sin
“Jesus answered (to Pilate); He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” (John 19:11)
How a greater sin can bring salvation to the world. Sin means, being disobedient to God, breaking His laws and commandments.
“…the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matt 26:45)
59. Jesus accursed Judas for his betrays.
Jesus said, “…but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matt 26:24)
But, it was Judas who made the salvation possible. If he had not been born, there would not have been any salvation for us.
Jesus said, “It had been good … if he had not been born.”
Why the contradiction?
60. Who can kill God? God is Holy. Nobody can kill God. God is eternal and immortal, free from the suffering of death. He is always alive. He is out of the approach of the human hands. Sinners’ hands cannot reach Him or harm Him.
If Jesus died for three days and three nights, then he is no longer eternal and hence not co-equal to God the Father.
61. Why Jesus (if he was a God) let the Jews and Romans disgrace Him and do all kind of insulting and persecution? What “The Most High” means and “God is Great.” God is not supposed to be humble and show not only humility, but actually disgrace at the hands of His enemies.
62. Jesus never mentioned that the purpose of his coming was to give his life on the cross.
63. Salvation through keeping the commandments of God:
Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing Jesus’ death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God. As it is in the Book of Matthew:
And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matt 19:16-17)
64. If salvation through crucifixion, then the credit goes to Jews, Romans & Judas
They are the Jews who demanded from the Roman Governor Pilate to put him on the cross. And Judas betrayed Jesus and made his arrest possible; otherwise Jesus was hiding in the garden of Gethsemane. Chief Priests paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas for informing the authorities for his arrest.
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Jesus wasn’t born on December then why is Christmas celebrated on 25th?
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65. A soldier saw Jesus walking, informs the chief priest
“The watch” who saw (Jesus and his disciples meeting and going) all these things, told the Chief Priest in the city.
Now when they were going (Jesus and his disciples), behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. (Matt 28: 11)
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Watch now! Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
It has tonnes of evidence put together in a very constructive way.
Day by day we are moving towards uncovering the mask of the false dogma of Christianity.
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65 Reasons to Believe #Jesus Did Not Die on the #Cross
Read more: http://t.co/dtcpARiHvd— LajnaIma’illahCanada (@LajnaCanada) January 25, 2015
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Categories: CHRISTIANITY, Easter, Highlight, Religion and Science
Zia Shah, you seem to relish not publishing the names of the two books I quoted, which you forgot to quote to Muslims and Christians with “open minds”
Anyone can read and study the bible but that does not make him a believer. We must never read scripture out of context. For every new testament reading there is an old testament reading that supports it. Read scripture and allow God to speak to you thro the word, what is the message saying and what is it telling you today.
I read with dismay how Paul the apostle of the gentiles is not believed by some. Luke was a gentile a follower of Paul. Jesus grew up in Galilee a place where Jews and gentiles lived. Did he not preach about the parable of the good Samaritan and also he proclaimed himself to a Samaritan woman who went to tell others about the messiah.
Jesus is human and devine in nature. He is the word who became flesh. By his humanity he suffered and died for us. He conquered death by dying on a cross and rising again thro his divinity. He predicted this by saying I will destroy the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. He ascended into heaven and sent forth the Holy spirit to his disciples just as he received it at the start of his own ministry.
owen west, thanks for your comment.
Trinity is three persons in one being, but, the confusion is that the Christian apologists keep mixing them up and constantly bait and switch. Talk about one person and imply the other. As if sometimes John is James and sometimes Jane.
We will believe in your rhetoric, if you can tell us some basic details:
1. Who decided to die on the cross, Jesus the man, Jesus the god or God the Father?
2. Who died on the cross Jesus the man or Jesus the god?
3. As Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, who raised him from the dead, Jesus the man, Jesus the god or God the Father?
And lastly what did the Holy Ghost think about this suicidal mission, we never seem to hear about that.
Thanks again for your kindness.
Much of owen west writing is known to every one. Owen west writes about looking into the old testament. May I ask why? When church has discarded the law of Moses a.s. as a curse and the Christians do not follow whatever is written in OT i.e. the circumcision, the Sabath, the abstention from the swine etc., then why to advise Muslims to read the OT.
We know much is there in OT against the present practice of the church. Most important is the words “You will not have another God beside Me..”
The OT supports the Unitarian faith but Church follows Trinity. WHY??? There is nothing in OT about Trinity.
There may not be anything about atonement in OT. If there was something good and useful in OT about Jesus a.s. the Christians have spoiled all that. Jesus followed the law of Moses a.s. He was a true follower of the law and Jesus was a messenger subservient to Moses a.s.
Welcome west. Try to present something about Trinity from the OT please.
It appears that Christianity is a completely different religion against the Abrahamic faith. It calls every man of God as born sinner and elevates Jesus to a status of God. It is not fair.
one can argue years about this, but before you or i post non-sense endless arguments, one should consider the real reason why would someone claim or try to prove that (in this case) Jesus did not die, but (according to the article) he suffered on the cross as far as it goes using the “bible” as evidence to support their claims. if you want to use the bible as evidence to support something you might as well use it all or forget it.
i don’t need reason to prove or defend my faith, at the end of the day faith is what you believe in, you close your eyes and believe once you start questioning it is no longer faith, call it whatever you want.
if you are trying to defend an idea by attacking a “known religious event” not to say truth, then your argument is invalid.
before we discuss if he died or not, who do you consider jesus was? a prophet? a god? a son of god?
or just a human?
once you categorize your view about Jesus we can then proceed to talk and discuss, i am not here to argue with anyone about a known historical fact let alone an ideological belief. you put someone on the cross for a day and a night, you come in the morning and hit them with a Speer, then you place them in a tomb or a room or whatever you want to call it – for 3 days. what do you call it? deep sleep? OK lets call it deep sleep. i wont call it death and resurrection.
question 1 – do you consider him miraculous?
he had previously risen someone else “Lazarus” from a 4 day death. he fed 5000 people with 3 pieces of bred and 2 fish.
obviously this is known historical facts, transmitted over 2000 years written by his followers witnessed by a whole generation.
if he can do miracles, does he need to die? can’t he just disappear? if he has risen someone else from death, can he do it himself? i can ask questions all day long and argue all night with no point.
if your non-christian i understand the “reason” you may have and the difficulty to “believe” that someone dad can come back alive, although it happened just a month before Jesus for the first time in history.
i can understand you having difficulty to believe that someone can ascend to heavens in his body, although it happened 6000 years before Jesus with prophet Elias.
but if you are christian, then it is simple to believe that one and only God the creator of earth and heavens descended to earth died for mankind and has risen from the death according to the scriptures.
first we (Christians) don’t believe in multiple gods like some may think, we believe in one holy trinity one in essence, what the father does so does the son and the holy spirit everything is done by the trinity. when Christ was baptized the holy spirit was present in the form of a pigeon and the father was there watching over him and calling him ” this is my son”
back to the cross the crussification witnesses the trinity in full action, the son on the cross the father in the earth quake and the spirit in the form of an angel. if you don’t believe that god was on earth in the form of a human body all this technical conversation makes no sense.
if you stick to your thoughts and beliefs that Jesus was only a prophet like any other with special powers, it is going to be hard to explain anything to you – actually there is no point explaining, faith doesn’t need reason, and live off hope. if Jesus was a prophet for you then it is understandable to doubt everything he did,
for me he was God on earth, we have a traditional saying in orthodoxy – “God became man so men can become gods”
did he need to? of course not. did he need to die? no definitely not.
so why all this drama then? why would god become a man and die? before i answer you, let me ask you, why did he create us in the first place? did he need to? of course not. was he bored? ask him he might answer you.
so why create humanity? then give them a brain to think and make them sin and kill and do crimes?
is he evil that much? never.
the answer is really really simple you have a choice, you have a brain and a heart that’s what makes you human. did god need to experience how does it feel like to be human? no why would he need to he created us from nothing.
to answer all this, is a straight forward mechanism, “love” love to the creation. if you take care of your son and send him to school and teach him and ensure his safety, what do you expect god to do with you?
god left in us his special creation a very special thing which is reason, and choice. you may abandon him, or stick by his side, up to you. but i assure you he will do everything possible to have you back. and that is what he did by coming to earth, this can look like non sense to lot of people and beyond reason, unfortunately there is no justification to faith.
to answer you question where does it say in the bible he died for our sins? john 1: 29
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
we all know a lamb is meant to die so others can enjoy life.
you may also want to look up the whole verse since it clearly states who is Jesus:
i picked some for you:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth….
30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me….
also on a side note:
john 3:
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
to answer Ghulam Sarwar of the presence of trinity in OT.
first you need to understand why the “God of old testament” refereed to himself as the one and only.
Jews used to believe in multiple Gods like the son and the wind and rain and so on, and he needed to explain to them that there is only one God creator of all things visible and invisible, how can you explain to someone that there is only “me” if you represent yourself as “three” it would make no sense, and would confuse the people as to whom they worship.
i will list events from O.T that proves that God is a “Trinity” to call it unfair is exaggerating, as you are directly attacking someone’s faith.
i don’t need to defend, but i will explain that we do not worship multiple gods, we worship one and only God. one in essence, we call the holy trinity, the father and the son and the holy spirit, these are not different persons or gods, these are only one god, represented in three hypo-stasis, each one has their own qualities, think of it like the sun as an example, the sun is a planet it is hot and gives light, these are all characteristics of one thing the sun the light and the heat are different, the origin is the planet itself the heat is generated by the combustion of the gas on the planet the light is a result of the burning star. it doesnt make it three things when talking about it, although i can say that the sun is the source of light, but you can say the sun is a burning star, these are not two different things it is two different topics speaking about one thing.
so it trinity, the father’s job is the creation, the son’s job is “salvation” and the holy spirit job is guidance, it doesn’t make God a multiple of gods, it is one god with different qualities.
now to answer yourt question about O.T
here you go you asked for it:
The doctrine of the Trinity is interwoven throughout the entire warp and woof of the Old Testament; it is not merely found in a discrete passage or proof-text here and there. For example, from the beginning to the end of the Old Testament, plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs and adjectives are regularly used for God, at least in the Hebrew text. A cursory list follows:
The word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.
A number of passages speak of the “faces” or “presences” or “persons” of God (Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 4:37; and Job 13:8).
God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),2 a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.
The OT says of God, “they caused me to wander” (Genesis 20:13), “they appeared” (Genesis 35:7), “they drew nigh” (Deuteronomy 4:7), “they went” (2 Samuel 7:23), and “they judge” (Psalm 58:11).
The OT calls God our “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1), “Makers” and “Husbands” (Job 35:10; Psalm 149:2; Isaiah 54:5).
The OT says that God is “holy” (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 9:10, 30:33), another plural.
All of this (and more) can be found in the Old Testament in spite of the fact that singular words are readily available in each instance where these words occur. If the prophetic authors of the Bible were unitarians, we wouldn’t expect them to speak about God in this way. Indeed, unitarians do not typically speak this way in ordinary conversation and fall all over themselves trying to explain them when they are brought up (taken from below)
i strongly suggest that you pick an OT and read the passages.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html
psalm 110:
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
who is king David talking about? who’s his lord? he was the king.
Amos 4:10-11
11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
who is the Lord? and who is God? is he talking about two different people?
same below:
Jeremiah 50:40
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the Lord; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
go back to the old testament you either think God is nuts and crazy talking to himself like that or you think that God is talking about someone else with him
the three angels that visited Abraham go back to the story, it shows you 3 men entered to Abraham and only one spoke to him telling him his wife will give birth to a son. then they disappeared.
why did the OT have to picture God as three guests? why not one guest? one wasn’t enough to tell him his wife is pregnant?
i’ll leave it at that
William Lane Craig’s Confession: ‘If we Examine Trinity, through the lens of the Old Testament, It is not Believable!’
Video: Is The Trinity Biblical? – Rabbi Tovia Singer
Ghulam Sarwar, Jesus said “Before Abraham was I AM” and also “There is something MUCH GREATER than Jonah here”. So that puts paid to your “Jesus was a messenger, subservient to Moses”
Jesus NEVER had the blemish of sin on Him. Jesus FORGAVE SINS and ONLY God can forgive sins.
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Zia Shah, I wonder what the Christ meant by saying “Go and baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and the Spirit”?
Baptism: A Changing Sacrament
John the Baptist: A Witness against Pauline Dogma
Baptize the Israelis of course. Where Jesus says Baptiste gentiles?
@bashir skaf :
July 31, 2014 at 9:23 pm
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Thank you for taking so much trouble to make a very long post. By your post you have raised many more problems for yourself. You have said “Reason is not required for belief…”. That makes you unreasonable. Can you please see that you have started off on the wrong foot? Reason, intellect, experience, five senses, knowledge, wisdom and rationality, all are required, even more than that. We need guidance from God in the shape of revelation too, which comes through the Holy Spirit.
If you do not need reason then our talk is useless.
I am not attacking your religion. I have the right to discuss your faith or part of your faith with reasons and proofs from your book (Bible). That is not attacking. It is necessary to get back to you because your missionaries are preaching to our Muslim children.
You have complicated the matter under discussion. We Muslims believe in Jesus as a man of God. He appeared on earth as man, as the son of Mary. He had a worldly father too (Joseph ) but still we call him Jesus son of Mary, son of a lady, a pious lady.
While he was alive, he was known as the son of Joseph the carpenter. At least for thirty years, he was known as son of Joseph. We do not know exactly when he was known as son of God. Did his mother Mary say that Jesus was son of God??
I believe he was a Jew and a prophet amongst the Jews (This is mentioned in Bible NT, some people considered him as a prophet). He followed the Jewish law. I will not write too much on all the good works that he did and tried to do. He was a perfect man and truly followed the law of Moses a.s. That means he considered himself as a human being and never had another God beside the ONE GOD of Israel.
If he had believed or taught even one day against that ONE GOD theology, he would have been caught on the first day and nobody would have followed him. But we know that multitude of poor simple God fearing people followed him.
Jesus never wanted to start a new religion. I am sorry, I cannot write too much on these things as it might hurt you. But please consider what I have described above. We can leave the subject of Trinity ( A three pronged God) and a god praying to some other god and a god dying like humans, and a god who is a perfect man and perfect god at the same time,,,, and three gods in ONE GOD,,, we will take up if other matters are amicably settled. Thank you.
@Ashok Saldanha
August 2, 2014 at 12:02 am
Zia Shah, I wonder what the Christ meant by saying “Go and baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and the Spirit”?
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Dear Ashok, those words of Jesus a.s. are good and correct. We must not take wrong meaning of those good words.
It is same as the Muslim creed “There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is His messenger.”
The name of Muhammad is mentioned along with the name of Allah, the only One God.
Jesus told his followers that they should preach in the name of the Father (i.e. God Almighty), the son (that is Jesus, spiritual son) and the holy ghost (That is the angel who used to bring messages to all prophets, that is called Holy Spirit).
It was necessary to teach like that because when you as a Christian will preach to people, they will ask you wherefrom you are bringing these good things? you will have to say that they are from God Almighty.
If they ask how and who got them from God, you have to give the name of Jesus a.s. That is a must.
Then it will be necessary to mention the holy Spirit too which supported Jesus all the time. Holy Spirit was with him all the time.
So the advice was good to preach in the name of Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But it did not mean that son and Holy Ghost should be made a part and parcel of God Almighty. Jesus never said that they should be made into Gods. Wassalam.
Ashok, as to your mentioning “Before Abraham I am.” It does not make Jesus greater than Abraham. Jesus told his friends or audience not to refer anything about Abraham. Abraham was no more present. But Jesus was present before them.
Otherwise it would be a meaningless English language sentence.
Also, Jesus being greater than Jonah i.e. ” There is something MUCH GREATER than Jonah here”. is correct. Jesus could be greater than all the other messengers in the Jewish line.
Prophet Jonah had made a small mistake due to misunderstanding the message from God. For that he had to suffer much. Because of his mistake, the people of Ninevah were saved from punishment.
Jesus was giving the example of prophet Jonah to his people to behave. He was warning the Jewish people of the punishment that they will get if they did not follow Jesus a.s.
Another good point in favor of Jesus a.s. is that he withstood the suffering on the cross amongst his people and did not leave the people before crucifixion until it was impossible for him to live there (and preach freely).
Ghulam Sarwar, One thing YOU HAVE “FORGOTTEN” to “explain” to my 3 points of “Christ CLAIM TO DIVINITY” is my last para where I wrote “Jesus NEVER had the blemish of sin on Him. Jesus FORGAVE SINS and ONLY God can forgive sins.”
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Ghulam Sarwar, when the koran clearly says that the Trinity consists of Father, Jesus & Mary, I wonder how you brought in an Angel and made him the Holy Spirit.
You say “Mohammed is his messenger” does the use of the word “messenger” make Mohammed the “Holy Spirit”?
I think not. You are tying yourselv in knots.
When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.
Not 1+1+1 like you say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.
Breaking News: Jesus Always Prayed to God the Father, Never to Himself or the Holy Ghost
I request Ashok and other Christian supporters to please follow the above link which is all from Bible NT. It is very useful. Jesus always prayed to God the father and never to himself and never to the Holy Spirit. Wassalam.
Zia Shah, again you have come a full circle. Jesus was the Word made flesh and as flesh (human) He prayed to God. He got tired, depressed, sad, cried and had all the emotions of humans which is shown clearly in the NT as well as He had all the qualities of the Divine also clearly shown in the NT.
He knew exacltly what was to befall Him and as a human got depressed. He could have easily got out of the situation, BUT NO He had a mission to fulfil which He completed on the Cross.
There is no “praying to the Holy Shost” because this would mean according to the koran praying to Mohammed who as “messenger” (Ref. Ghulam Sarwar) is the holy spirit.
Moreover since Christians believe in ONE God (whatever the koran says), Jesus as a human was praying to God.
‘Word made flesh’ (?) Can we not just say that this is ‘beyond us’? ‘Flesh made Soup’ may be more understandable…
Dear Ashok Saldanha, please read your Nicene creed again and also show us when God the Father and Holy Ghost were also praying to each other and at times to Jesus? After all they are all equal, according to your understanding.
For your convenience, here is the creed from Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/413955/Nicene-Creed
It also seems that Pontius Pilate is also an “Essential,” to understand the Christian Triune God, as he is included in the Nicene Creed!
Please also advise, as Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, one third of the Triune God was dead, who raised him from the dead?
@Ashok Saldanha: Ghulam Sarwar, when the koran clearly says that the Trinity consists of Father, Jesus & Mary, I wonder how you brought in an Angel and made him the Holy Spirit.
Reply: Quran never says Trinity consists of Father, Jesus and Mary. It refers to the worship of Mary by the Christians.
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You say “Mohammed is his messenger” does the use of the word “messenger” make Mohammed the “Holy Spirit”?
Reply: No. Holy Spirit is an angel who is also a messenger, that is angel Gabriel. Muhammad is a human messenger for the mankind just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham are prophets and messengers for mankind….
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When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.
Not 1+1+1 like you say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.
Reply: That is not true that Jesus talked about Triune God. That matter has been explained to you separately, if you care. If you add, three gods will be there for you.
If you multiply, multiple gods will still be there. And in that case you need not stop at your three gods. You can have infinite number of gods because
INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY = INFINITY.
It is not equal to TRINITY or equal to ONE. So you lose the THREE and the ONE God.
Rafiq A. Tschannen, YOU BLASPHEME.
Jesus is referred to as a “Word” from God in three passages in the koran. No other prophet has been described with such a title.
Christians believe that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh that is BECOME MAN.
…
Ghulam Sarwar, if you think you are playing a game about losing and winning, GROW UP!
Whom would you believe Witnesses who were alive at the moment when Christ died and rose again or something written 650 years after the fact.
IT IS EASY to dismiss what you don’t understand or what YOU DONT WANT TO UNDERSTAND.
Ashok Saldanha, a tornado of logic and arguments, have blown away dogma of Christianity in this post, including the comments and you are behaving as if nothing has happened.
Bravo!
Reminded me of some of the verses of the Holy Quran:
I think the only thing left for you to read is:
Kripkean Dogmatism: The Best Metaphor to Understand Religious and Political Debates
Be sure of ONE thing Holy Jesus was a Prophet & never was crucified as witnessed in Holy Quran.
So was confirmed by the St.Barnabas.
Psalm 91 4to 12 is clear that He was protected by ALLAH’s Angel & was never crucified.
Luke 4:10-12 Also witness He was not Crucified.
It most probable The Enemy of Holy Jesus known as Juda Isacret was miraculously turned to the Appearence of Holy Jesus & was crucified.
Also note Sir Isaac Newton was a Muslim at heart.
As contained in BBC vedio & supported by other Professors. Thanks.
It sadens me that you don’t see that there is no wisdom in the words you speak. I wish you would read the bible fully and that God gives you the wisdom to understand what it says.
& now we have someone called “PLAIN TRUTH” telling us that Isaac Newton was a “muslim at heart” while Dan Brown called him an “Illuminati”
and according to the koran everyone from Adam down is or was a muslim.
It is a known fact that Mohammed was influenced by apocryphal Gospels in circulation around 350 AD for his “revelations” on Christ.
…
Comments by Christian apologists that engage the arguments being presented here are more likely to be approved than those putting a new spin on the facts at hand or those suggesting new ways of obsession with Jesus of Nazareth, a noble prophet of God.
Zia Shah, Now I hope you post this as it is as you say “engaging the arguments presented here”
I think trying to get out of the web you have spun for yourself by posting what you have? No one is putting a new spin on anything. When you keep on publishing the same set of links and posts regarding Christ, then you will get the same type of posts in defense.
…
@Ashok:It is a known fact that Mohammed was influenced by apocryphal Gospels in circulation around 350 AD for his “revelations” on Christ
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Ashok, you are beyond repair. can you show me anything in the Quran that you had in your Bible? or in any Apocryphal Bible? Please come down to realities. We have provided you enough material but you have ignored all.
See what says a famous German Philosopher JW Goethe:
Narrisch das jeder im seinem falle,
Seine besondere meinung Preisst!
Wenn Islam Gott ergeben heist,
Im islam lieben und sterben wir Alle.
Trans: It is useless to praise oneself by own mouth. If Islam means submission to God then we all live and die as Muslims.
(And Islam indeed means submission to One God. The name of our faith is not based on any man’s name or places name.)
Ashok, if what you are saying is right then You are admitting that your leaders, in year 325 AD destroyed much useful material. Your church leaders had hidden (burnt) much truth from the world.
Now about Sir Issac Newton, from “Revelation, rationality, knowledge and Truth”:
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In conclusion, Scotus advises that the validity of one’s faith should be examined from time to time according to the dictates of rationality. If the two appear to be conflicting then one must follow reason. Thus reason will always hold an edge over faith.
This attitude is best illustrated in Newton’s (1642–1727) treatment of the Trinity. As long as he did not consciously and scientifically examine his inherited religious views, he continued to remain a devotee of the doctrine. But when at a later stage he decided to put his faith to the test of reason and rationality, he was left with no option but to reject the dogma of Trinity which in his view had failed the test of reason.
Thus he became the all-time greatest victim of the prejudices of the Christian church sacrificed at the altar of the cross. As a tribute to the genius of Newton, he was elected as a Fellow of the “College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity”, University of Cambridge, a post which he held for many years. In 1675 however, he was given the choice to either vacate his seat and keep his convictions, or to compromise his convictions and assert his orthodoxy under oath one last time in ordination.
But the “Holy and Undivided Trinity” itself stood in his way. His stubborn refusal to subscribe to the doctrine of Trinity cost him not only his fellowship, but also the handsome stipend of £60 a year. No small amount indeed, judging by the value of money in those days. He was dispossessed of his fellowship and chair from the university on the charge of heresy. The charge of heresy was levelled against him only because in Newton’s eyes worshipping Christ was idolatry, to him a fundamental sin. R.S. Westfall writes on Newton:
‘He recognized Christ as a divine mediator between God and humankind, who was subordinate to the Father Who created him.’1
‘The conviction began to possess him that a massive fraud, which began in the fourth and fifth centuries, had perverted the legacy of the early church. Central to the fraud were the Scriptures, which Newton began to believe had been corrupted to support Trinitarianism. It is impossible to say exactly when the conviction fastened upon him. The original notes themselves testify to earlier doubts. Far from silencing the doubts, he let them possess him.’2
Hence, his faith in the Unity of God and rejection of the Trinity was based on his unbiased, honest investigation into the validity of Christian beliefs. There is many a note written in his own hand on the margins of his personal Bible.
No denomination is 100% right, plain and simple. To deny Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead is pure blasphemy. To pick apart my Bible, my Scripture, my Lord and Savior, only to make yourself and your faith more believable has the opposite effect. It proves even more that the Christian faith is the only path to Paradise. Trying to create negativity only brings attention to the subject in the story, Jesus Christ. You help open the lost sheep’s eyes to Jesus and discover or even re-discover Him. I believe the truth. It is not rocket science. My God does NOT require me to kill in the name of Him. My God does not require me to pray the same thing multiple times a day. My God does not require all these distractions and preparations in order to glorify Him. Do you even understand what the word glorify means? It is to make visible. Observe someone, not listen to what they say about themselves. If you see God working in him without it being told to you, then that person is allowing God to use him to his fullest potential. My Paradise will be nothing my tiny human mind could ever conceive. My reward when I reach heaven is non-specific. It will just be beyond anything I can imagine. Everyone who has died in the name of allah will be in hell, that is clear. It is not my judgment, only the facts as presented by God the Father of ALL MANKIND whose one and only Son is Christ Jesus. Muhammad is dead. His bones can be found. allah is a figment of an under educated mind. That does not make you stupid however. Continuing to believe that after the proof that Jesus presents to us everyday…IS.
I love you and everyone else in the world and can do so from a distance for now until you and your fellow sheep come home. Everyone is called but many will not come. Jesus will return when the last sheep returns. Until then, I will continue to love Him, not because it is the Greatest Commandment, but because love is more powerful than anything by far and only comes from Jesus. Tomorrow is not promised so I can only ask for you to remember that context is king. Many groups such as yours have manipulated Scripture to suit your needs, not God’s. Just stop it because it is silly. I am not promised 72 raisins(yeah, I said raisins because your own text from the yellow journalism that is the quran was manipulated to say virgins many ages ago. look it up and stop dodging the fact. Sure, the truth hurts sometimes but we can learn from it. It is hard to give up a certain way of life especially if you were groomed that way since birth and your childhood was robbed from you because your parents, or you father for that matter since you treat women like rabid dogs, taught you this nonsense because he himself was abused as a child. Let your kids be kids, adulthood sucks. Give them what you did not have. Let them learn by making their own mistakes but also provide a safe haven for them to return to and “lick their wounds” so to speak. You learn from people whom you respect on your own free will. The respect you claim your children have for their parents is not from free will, it is through grooming, manipulation, brainwashing, and threats of death for failure to comply using the mythical allah to co-sign your directives. Here is what it comes down to: Scripture from God, the Father of Jesus is the best way to live. No need to believe in heaven at first, it will come. This way, you will enjoy a healthy, bountiful, abundantly blessed life, and if there is a heaven, BONUS!!!
God bless my brothers and sisters. The road is difficult and filled with challenges, and even worse, the gate is narrow. Get on track before it is too late. The time is near. Goodnight.
I was saddened when I saw this Muslim author passive-aggressively attacking Christian faith in this article.
I truly find all 65 assertions here to be misleading. The Bible must be read in faith, or it’s meaning is hidden from you.
1. Why crucifixion?
The Jews wanted to prove Jesus wasn’t God, because God would save him, as you say. But why would God save Jesus? Dying on the cross fulfills scripture, Jesus actually stopped his disciples from defending him just to make sure he got to the cross! Jesus is perfect and sinless, and therefore his blood fulfills the law, and our sins our forgiven.
2. The Pharisees wanted him crucified, if that’s what your asking. They believed he was blasphemous for saying he was God.
3. Yes, the Jews did want him crucified. We all agree that this happened.
4. Many aspects: There are always different perspectives, I do see anything to respond to. Jesus died for our sins, he was betrayed, he was accused of Blasphemy … these are all facts but there is no argument for me…
5. Hiding: Jesus was not hiding the night he was captured, in fact he had years of experience hiding from people trying to kill him. Only after the Last Supper, after he had announced his death and the betrayal, and finished his ministry did he allow himself to be captured so that scripture could be fulfilled.
6. Jesus prayed to be saved, not wanting to die … WRONG.
He’s literally talking about a cup, not himself.
LESSON: Jews had a tradition of drinking and passing a cup, and the one finishing the cup had to also finish all the thick remnants that remained at the bottom. Jesus spoke of having this “cup of sin” passed from him … meaning he was praying not to be saved, but to take every last “drop of sin” from mankind, and not miss anything. This is the love he demonstrates, it is the reason Christianity was born.
***SEE # 31, duplicate 🙂
7. This is out of context and there is a typo. First of all, Jesus is THANKING God, not “thinking”. Second, he says this for the benefit of the people, which is mentioned within the context.
8. Jesus helped by an Angel? Why? … Remember that Jesus was in a man’s body, he felt hunger and thirst and weakness. There is nothing strange about an Angel helping and encouraging him, this was a very difficult time for Jesus.
9. A quick death: Jesus had a particularly gruesome experience as an alleged blasphemer, and likely died quickly due to his previous injuries and blood loss.
***See #14, duplicate 🙂
10. I agree, Pilate tried to save him, perhaps for his wife. This is not an argument against the fact that it did happen, the Jews were nearly rioting according to scripture.
11. God does not lie, he is perfect. You suggest God should have planted a false dream, but Christians find great offense in that! The whole purpose of life is to “save souls” from wandering away from heaven. That mission is sacred and selfless. Her dream likely saved her soul, and perhaps even her husbands and many others she met as she shared her experience. I too would have given her that dream. Life does not matter, but the spirit matters.
12. Pilate found him innocent. Again, this is a fact, yes. But it does not change what happened.
13. Earthquake = Anger. Yes, God was angry, to kill Jesus is a great sin. But do not misinterpret that anger: this was necessary, but that does not make it any less of a sin. Second, also consider this: the earthly death of God could be expected to cause an Earthquake. Third, this earthquake directly symbolizes the new direct connection we have with God. This is how Christian prayers are always answered, “true” Christians are very happy and safe.
14. See #9
15. No unanswered argument here
16. Fluid dynamics are exactly the same in a dead body as in a living body. If that doesn’t satisfy you, consider the awkward body position during crucifixion. Go and slaughter a sheep and the tremendous amount of blood in a dead animal will become apparent to you.
17. Well … I can’t help that you don’t like how Romans checked for life. But if you must know, stabbing an unconscious person wakes them up. I suppose the two living ones were breathing, which was enough to see they were alive without stabbing them.
18. This is just a fact. Why break his legs if he is dead?
19. You are right to say that burials are custom for “most” Jews, but wrong to assert that entombments don’t happen. They happened then, and they happen now.
20. This doesn’t make sense due to # 17. They confirmed he was dead … on the cross. There is no question.
God loves you, and maybe that’s why your reading this. He hopes you will find the wisdom to come to him. As a gift I’ve made an honest attempt to guide you through the first 20 points here, and if you like my answers, perhaps you can find the faith in our Messiah and go through the rest.
I am a Christian, but very open and sincerely interested in Islam apologetic. I see the discussion always flows into incoherence of the Bible, different interpretations and misinterpretations of Biblical accounts and Quran and Quran accounts.
Let’s leave any sacred book apart for a moment.
There is one thing that keeps running in my mind that is never answered. There are tons of historians, some of the caliber of Tacitus and Josephus which make clear that Jesus dies. No one of them denies it. The issue is that is we say even those 2 historians are saying the false, then we have to deny 95% of the entire history as we know it today. This is already a big issue, but even bigger if we consider that a mountain of other accounts and archaeological discoveries are confirming Tacitus and Josephus in almost all else they write apart from Jesus.
Please! Is there somebody that can answer this my dilemma on historical basis WITHOUT citing Bible or Quran or any other religious book? This is tormenting me! Where is history on the claim that Jesus did not die? I need to know.
Luca the point is that you want to bet your salvation and religion on something better than two flimsy accounts from two historians.
Can you please quote what these historians exactly said about Jesus and who were the publisher of these books, what year were they published and how many copies?
It is one thing to say that there was a Plato or a Socrates, because we have some historical account of them and another to base a civilization or religion on two thousand year old stories of unreliable nature.
Else where I have talked about other man-gods from the same time as Jesus, who according to Islam was a noble prophet of God, like Moses, David, Solomon and John the Baptist.
Who is more reliable than the close friends of Jesus? If we look into the gospels, the news about death of Jesus is only when he was brought down from cross. That means he appeared to be dead. To say that Jesus was still alive would have been very dangerous.
After that there is no mention of death. There is only RISEN.
There also in Gospels, it is not mentioned that Jesus had risen from death. There is only the word RISEN.
Why we should go far afield to Josephus etc? Why not look into the Bible (And Quran) with rationale? There is no need to reject Bible and favor history. We should reject Josephus on the subject of Jesus because he (Josephus) is not directly concerned.
ZIA SHAH, HERE IS A SHORT LIST OF EVIDENCE FOR JESUS
***Jesus Christ is perhaps the most well documented and historically provable figure in antiquity!
TIP: When looking for a black hole in space, you can’t see the black hole, but you know its there because of it’s effects on nearby stars.
1. PAUL: The apostle Paul, who is well proven to have existed, spoke to Jesus’ brother James, twice. It would have been impossible for Paul to make this up with all the attention on him. If his brother existed, and people were ok calling him the brother of Jesus, it follows that Jesus existed.
ABOVE, LUCA MENTIONED JOSEPHUS AND TACITUS…
2. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS has a passage in The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, which also references Jesus’ brother. “and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James,”. Josephus mentions Jesus and his biblical qualities in other writings such as The Jewish War as well, which were possibly edited, but point back to the Antiquities of the Jews.
3. CORNELIUS TACITUS makes Jesus crucifixion a matter of official historical record, after Emperor Nero blamed Christians for a great Roman fire of 6 days. “Christus, … , suffered the extreme penalty … at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.” Book 15 Ch 44
4. OSSUARY: A 2,000 year old small stone box called, see “Ossuary,” has an unverified inscription claiming to be of Jesus brother. An attempt by false witnesses to discredit the box was dis-proven, so testing is still in process as for the reliability of the inscription, although top paleographers agree it is authentic, and also authentic patina has been found in the letters.
5. SOCIOLOGY: many religions followed Christianity – and it’s noted by sociologists who study them that for new religions to succeed, they tend to need a powerful figurehead to get it started. The original believers (the spark), need to see the figurehead in the flesh to create massive interest and growth. Jesus needed to be physically present for Christianity to work, he’s like the spark plug of an engine.
6. HUMILIATING ORIGINS. In those times, crucifixion was a humiliating way to die. This type of death would have been embarrassing for Christians to talk about, so they certainly did not create this story, and the Jews would not have created it either, as it would have been more efficient for him to be lost in history and forgotten. The only escape from this logical conundrum is that Jesus was crucified.
7. THE NEW TESTAMENT. Although many dismiss the idea that the Bible can prove itself, the New Testament is supported through overwhelming evidence to be an accurate historic document.
8. PLINY THE YOUNGER (lawyer&Magistrate) to Emperor Trajan: These letters reveal very early accounts of Christians and their thoughts on Christ … they believed in his divinity, and also they thought of him as a man (historical figure).
9. ISLAM: Muslims believe in Jesus, although not the way Christians do. If Jesus did not exist, than both Islam and Christianity would fail.
10. YESHU: The Babylonian Talmud says: “On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.” In Hebrew, it seems that Jesus is pronounced as Yeshu. BTW, hanged is a synonym for crucified (see Galations and Luke for examples).
11. LACK OF JEWISH DENIAL: The Pharisees claimed Jesus performed miracles through Beelzebul, and they also claimed he performed sorcery. They could not deny his works, only misconstrue them. They also claimed he was successfully misleading the nation, pointing to his powerful teaching practices.
12. LUCIAN of Samosata: “The Christians . . . worship a man to this day–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.” Notice that this Greek Satirist references Jesus as a man.
13. SEXTUS JULIUS AFRICANUS: “An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.”
14. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (Roman Historian): Reported that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ”
Closing: Although I have provided some starting points for your research into Jesus existence, this is NOT the right way to find faith. Faith comes from the heart, not from the eyes. These questions put God to the test, and that is an evil. With your whole heart, ask Jesus for your faith, and it will be given to you freely, and you will be happy.
Nick you are a smart man and have collected some historical materials, may be you can answer two questions that no Christian has tried to answer before.
1. As Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, a third of the Triune God was dead, who raised him from the dead?
2. How did the human and divine nature of Jesus co-exist. Before answering this please read the following article:
Breaking News: Jesus Always Prayed to God the Father, Never to Himself or the Holy Ghost
Zia Shah, unless you are reasoning on mere history about a religion, then the most important thing in trying understanding concepts of another religion is to temporarily set your mind to reason on the basis of the religion you are analyzing.
This is why my question did not want to be about faith, but history or otherwise I would have posed it in a completely different way.
Now, while my question of pure history still remains open and unanswered, the 2 questions you pose here about Jesus deity are religious questions – not historical. So in order to answer (and I can try do it in outlines for you) you should put yourself in the mindset of a Christian and reason on their basis, not on Islam’s basis:
2) God is omnipotent and CAN everything. Jesus has two natures coexisting together.
– Jesus’ human nature: as an example he ascended to heaven and he is no longer in the world (John 16:28; 17:11; Acts 1:9-11)
– Jesus’ Divine nature: He is everywhere present (Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 14:23)
Both natures are true in the person of Christ, he is returned to Heaven and He is always present with us.
1)Looking at #2, in His human nature Jesus died (Luke 23:46; 1 Cor 15:3 and lots of historians), but His divine nature did not die and raised Himself (human nature) from the dead. (John 2:19; 10:17-18; Heb 7:16). When He died, his body died and His soul separated from His body and passed into the presence of His father (Luke 23:43-46). So He experienced a death that is similar to the one we believers experience if we die before Jesus returns. Seeing things this way, when Jesus died His power was not diminished, but His divine nature tasted what it was like to through death.
It is extremely difficult to explain these concepts in a few lines. On your 2 questions, a book can be written – that is why maybe no Christians answered, but I hope I could give you the core idea that you cannot interpret Christianity reasoning as a Muslim as I cannot reason on Islam from Christian basis, neither I try because I know it’d be wrong in the results.
This is why I was focusing only on pure history and my question wants to remain historical. If somebody can answer it with pure history I would be happy or otherwise, please just tell me that pure history cannot answer it and that is a totally valid honest answer for me.
I ask these difficult questions of my Christian brothers and sisters, not to hurt their feelings or to deprive them of their faith, but, to make them a little open to Islamic theology.
Let me suggest some additional reading, for our Christian readers:
How Islam has Influenced Christian understanding of God
All the comments under this post can be summarize by one question: Can God do anything? If He can that he can exist in three forms.
The answer is no. He cannot go against His being.
We know from His attributes that He is the Truthful so He CANNOT lie. We know He eternal and everliving so HE CANNOT KILL HIMSELF.
We are offering our Christian friends an opportunity to have an open discussion about God. They should have faith in God that the Truth will always prevail. So no need so be disrespectful of other’s views and no need so show non-Christ like attitude. Live up to the teachings of Jesus Christ!
The fact that this post is bothering the conscience of our Christian friends is a proof enough to suggested that they should question their faith and accept the true teachings of Jesus Christ which is none other than the one offered by his spiritual brother Prophet Muhammad (sm).
We love Jesus Christ (as) and because of our love were compelled to share his true teachings.
May Allah guide us all.
Zia Shah, absolutely no hurted feelings and that was not my intention too in my question, that is why I said immediately, let’s not use Bible or Quran, but only history, I really wanted and want for now to stay out of questions of faith until historical accounts are in front of my eyes.
From the link you just published, we need to be careful to don’t place Catholics in the same group as Christians. There are many catholics I know, including my beloved aunt, that are very good christians (and maybe bad catholics…), but that is not the standard and their belief in salvation is completely different and their Bible is extremely different too.
I’m sincerely sorry for all the discussion I caused. I just wanted to know if there are historical direct statements that Jesus did not die, it’s a simple question because I’m studying apologetic and do not want to hear only 1 side.
Mirza Ghulam Rabbi, and everybody.
I really sincerely apologize with all my heart if I hurt you or anybody. I thought I never been disrespectful, and if I was it was not my intention and God knows I’m not lying.
I’m a student of theology and now studying apologetic and even if I’m a Christian I could not accept to hear only Christian speakers telling me that history proves Jesus died. I didn’t see that fair. I wanted to hear a real source from the other side.
Again I apologize. I’m sorry. Sincerely.
In the following two books, you will find some historical evidence for the fact that Jesus did not die on the cross:
Jesus in India
If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence
In the following post, a few documentaries are linked on the same theme:
Jesus did not die on the cross!
Thank you so much. Asalamu aleykum.
Luca
ZIA, although I’ve answered the first 20 of the 65 questions above already, I readily accept your next challenge in defense of Jesus.
1. Q: WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD:
A: Jesus is God, and God cannot die, therefore the trinity was intact, and there is no reason why Jesus could not have been risen by his own will.
Jesus dies = Jesus’ body died = Jesus’ soul lives
…
Mirza Ghulam Rabbi
I believe the Holy Spirit is here testing you because “many” of these questions were not difficult to answer, so why did you include them? This article is extremely convincing for those who don’t understand the Bible. So I feel that this was a dishonest attack against Jesus. Jesus would tell me not to be a wolf toward Islam, but to be a dove in the spread of Jesus’ love. If I were to speak out against Islam, loyalty to God would require my absolute faith that every single question I pose has no answer you could give me … yet even that responsible form of attack would make me a wolf, not a dove.
Plural pronouns used of God PROVING THE TRINITY is God Himself.
Two plural pronouns, (Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. The word God (Elohim) IS ALSO PLURAL EVERY TIME IT IS USED IN THE OT.
1. “Then God (plural Elohim) said, “Let US (plural pronoun) make man in OUR (plural pronoun) image, according to OUR (plural pronoun) likeness” Genesis 1:26
2. “Then Yahweh God (plural Elohim) said, “Behold, …… like one of US (plural pronoun) Gen. 3:22
3. “Come, let US(plural pronoun) go down and there confuse…… understand one another’s speech.” Gen 11:7
4. “Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural Elohim], saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for US [plural pronoun]?”” Is6:8
AND When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.
Not 1+1+1 like Muslims say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.
Dear Ashok Saldana, why such fuss to prove some nonsense.
If:
1x1x1 = 1
So is:
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 = 1
The Hindu understanding of millions of gods must be true?