The Great Resurrection Debate – William Lane Craig vs. John Shelby Spong
If we listen to both speakers with respect and due diligence, we will find that resuscitation of Jesus, as understood by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, is a more likely explanation of what the disciples experienced, rather than a resurrection.
Additional Reading
Jesus did not die on the cross!
Gospel story of Jesus’ resurrection a source of deep rifts in Christian religion
Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension
If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence
The Last Supper: A Fiction Opposing the Account of Garden of Gethsemane
The Pope Benedict’s account of resurrection and the hearsay rule!
Did Jesus rise in a physical body or a spiritual one?
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross
Pastors Ordained by God to Demystify Christianity
Categories: Catholicism, CHRISTIANITY, Debate, Easter, Original Sin, Religion, Video
How could God raise Jesus from the dead, when one third of him was lying dead in the tomb?
It is a rhetorical question, so please no need to answer it.
The best thing that I learnt from this debate is that for St. Paul resurrection and ascension were the same things. But, when Acts and Luke were written towards the end of the first century, the concept of “Ascension,” became part of the Christian myth. Bishop Spong describes this as part of his Carl Sagan story, around 1.10 time mark in the video above.
The debators did not say it, but, my understanding is, seizure was described as demon possession in the first century lingo and resuscitation as resurrection.
It means there was no Trinity during the time that Jesus was dead on the cross till the time he had RISEN in tomb(??) That is supposedly getting up from the lying down position. There were only two gods working at that time??
Jesus Rose from the dead and appeared to His apostles before ascending into heaven. The Holy Spirit appeared like flames on the heads of the apostles at Pentecost. They were then bold enough to go out and proclaim Jesus is risen and many were converted and believed. Some apostles died for their efforts but that didn’t stop the spread of Christianity.
Today the message is clear and the same John 3.16 God so loved the world that He sent His only beloved son Jesus Christ to walk among and teach us that He came not to condemn but to save it. Who believes will have eternal life with God in heaven.
Do you choose eternal life ?
Zia Shah at it again huh? Don’t you get tired of this? Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD is a fact and there were more than 500 who saw Him. Your “resuscitation of Jesus, as understood by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, is a more likely explanation of what the disciples experienced, rather than a resurrection.” is nothing more than a distortion, an attempt to sully something that has been believed as a fact for over 2000 years.
Who are these William Lane Craig vs. John Shelby Spong? Seem they are just trying to get their 1 hour 45 minutes and 41 seconds of fame.
Zia Shah your very inane first comment of this so called “debate” – How could God raise Jesus from the dead, when one third of him was LYING DEAD in the tomb? is a CONTRADICTION …
Of course it is a contradiction in terms. God according to Trinitarian Christian understanding is three persons in one being.
God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
If Jesus was lying dead, God was incomplete and perhaps could not function fully. If God could still function fully, perhaps there was no need of Jesus in the Godhead in the first place.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Zia Shah, how many times have you been told that Christ had two characteristics true Man & true God (Shown in the Gospels many a time i.e. IF YOU WISH TO BELIEVE, but if you will believe what has been drilled into you since birth and the numberless skeptics which are found a dime a dozen, but who cannot prove anything for all their finite efforts at trying to UNDERSTAND THE INFINITE then it is just water under the bridge).
Just as our PHYSICAL BODIES will someday die, so did His. But as Jesus died physically, He remained alive spiritually. Jesus made good on His promise to the believing thief on the cross—He and the thief both went to paradise, not physically, but in spirit (Luke 23:43).
The man Christ died on the cross AND God left the body He TEMPORARILY inhabited on Earth, but His divine nature did not die, NOR COULD IT.
I am not having cake Zia Shah. I am having the truth.
Wonderful. So, only a man died, not son of God.
One man compensated for the sins of billions? God the Father after all did not send his only begotten son to die for the sins of humanity.
Interesting!
Also advise us about divine flesh? How can 46 chromosome human co-exist with Omnipresent and Omniscient God, please give us your new biology also. Flesh and bones of human are limited to his 70 kilogram body and God is spread over the whole universe, billions of light years wide.
Please read the debates between John Calvin and Martin Luther. Can we end this irrationality now in the 21st century.
Ashok sahib, there are so many contradictions in your faith. First is three in one a d one in three. Now you have reminded us about another that Jesus had two states or status at same time.
Jesus never preached about original sin. Show me from gospel please the verses that Jesus a.s. preached on the subject of original sin. There is no such thing.
Some one made up all that for you and the world. What about the promise of Jesus a.s. to go on search of the lost sheep of Israel. You do not remember that. You had been sending the man of God, Jesus a.s. to hell for three days from the tomb and then letting him go to heavens.
I want to know, exactly when did Jesus a.s. go to hell. Was it before or after resurrection? Did he go to hell as a man of a god? Please advise. Thank you.
Also tell me who was walking 70 miles to Galilee. Was it the man Jesus or the god Jesus? Please explain all your theory as you have said, ” Jesus was a complete man and god at the same time.”
The world needs to learn all these things from you. It may help us to understand your points.
Zia Shah, it is because of you NOT LETTING intelligent debate on TMT that TMT has so few people who posts. I am one of them because I just cannot let IGNORANT AND SILLY POSTS on the Christ to go without condemnation.
LET SOME FREE AIR into TMT and you will find that there will be more people who will want to debate.
What are you scared of? I can think of many things but if I post them here I know they will not be published.
Jesus did not die on the cross!
Was Jesus Crucified? Ahmed Deedat vs Dr. Floyd E. Clark
Gospel story of Jesus’ resurrection a source of deep rifts in Christian religion
The pagan roots of Easter
Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension
If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence
The Last Supper: A Fiction Opposing the Account of Garden of Gethsemane
The Pope Benedict’s account of resurrection and the hearsay rule!
Did Jesus rise in a physical body or a spiritual one?
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross
Pastors Ordained by God to Demystify Christianity
Zia Shah, I gave you names of 2 more books which you failed to publish. Like I said what are you scared of? A proper debate or a one sided one where you are always right?
Ashok Saldanha, please do not create false impression that your naming of some two books, is equal to all the evidence I have presented against the dogma of resurrection.
Put forth your refutation of my case above or give reasons for your case, rather than some trickery of one kind or the other and you will find us very open to your comments.
The problem here Zia and of most of the Muslim faith is that we worship the Son of God. We worship a God whose Son Jesus Christ died for ‘our’ sins on Calvary’s tree. Who rose again and defeated death. Through whom after confessing him as lord and receiving him into our hearts we have eternal life. Whereas the Muslim faith do not have that. You have Mohammed. He was a prophet. He was holy. He was man….only a man. He did not die for our sins. He did not defeat death by rising again. Through Islam you have no assurance of resurrection but in Christ we do. You are worshipping a false hope
Zia…..turn your eyes upon Jesus look full into his wonderful grace and the things of earth will grow strangly dim in the light of His holy grace. L
Dear Robert Ward thank you for your claims.
The Holy Quran says that God, who created you in the first place, can recreate you. This is a very valid idea. But, Jesus rising from the dead is based on 2000 years old stories, which are mutually contradictory in the four Gospels.
Dear Robert, tell me one simple thing though, as Jesus lay dead, for three days and three nights, one third of the Triune God lay dead, who raised Jesus from the dead?
Suggested Reading:
Jesus did not die on the cross!
Was Jesus Crucified? Ahmed Deedat vs Dr. Floyd E. Clark
Gospel story of Jesus’ resurrection a source of deep rifts in Christian religion
The pagan roots of Easter
Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension
If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence
The Last Supper: A Fiction Opposing the Account of Garden of Gethsemane
The Pope Benedict’s account of resurrection and the hearsay rule!
Did Jesus rise in a physical body or a spiritual one?
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross
Pastors Ordained by God to Demystify Christianity
Comments by Christian apologists that engage the arguments being presented here are more likely to be approved than those putting a new spin on the facts at hand or those suggesting new ways of obsession with Jesus of Nazareth, a noble prophet of God.
There are so many problems with Church teachings.
1. What is meaning of RISEN? Nobody tells.
2. Begotten, as per Mathew Chapter 1:1 is conceiving through male agency. Nobody explains.
3. Death came through sin of Adam. Adam was not the first man on earth. He lived 6000 years ago. Many men and women were living and dying before him. What was their sin? Jesus did not preach about original sin.
4. Jesus having two status, perfect man and perfect god at same time is a riddle nobody can explain and nobody explains.
5. Why god had to come in the world to teach people, to live, eat and drink and die in the world. And once he had died (a questionable cursed death according to Old Testament) on the cross, why he had to rise again? There is no proof of Jesus death on cross. So There was no curse too. 65 reasons from holy Bible have been posted on this forum to prove that. Nobody replies to that.
6. The first 12 years of Jesus life was spent in Egypt. Next 18 years were spent where? Not known. He suddenly appears at age 30, starts preaching. He is caught within 3 years, put on the cross, suffered so much that it was to the point of hopelessness.
7. He was a true peaceful man of God.
8. Was it a man on the cross or the god? He cried out to his God, Eli, Eli, Lama sabaqatani?? My Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken me? He was reminding God Almighty about the promise of his safety that he will not die on the cross. God needs no reminder. God saved him from death on cross. He fainted, was looked after with medicines in a spacious tomb and resuscitated. That was a miracle for the sake of Jesus a.s.
No burial rites were performed and he was not buried. His legs had not been broken… He was the same man who was put on the cross.
9. He was seen walking 70 miles to Galilee.
Can any Christian please tell me what did Jesus do as a God in the world before crucifixion? We know he did many things (all things) as a man and a man of God. What did he do specifically as a God?
10. I am sure the Quran has better description of Jesus and his mother and his grand mother. There is much more respect for all of them in Quran, if any Christian wants to read the Quran. It is (translation is) available in many languages.
Zia…it is very simple. The deity…which is the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost. All three are One even though the have seperate identities. God raised Him, that is Jesus from the dead…..
this is the great sacrifice – God, the Son and the Ghost are one. So God in the form of Jesus died on the cross for our sins. How great a sacrifice. The Creator dying for the created.
We worship a living God who died for our sins. And through Him, through His victory over death and the grave we can have salvation. No other way, not through works, not by giving, not by going to church,not even by praying – there is only one way to God.
The God of the Bible and the God of the Quran are the one and the same. But God wanted Salvation for the entire world not just the Jews. So he came to us in the form of his Son who was foretold at the very beginning at creation (Gen 3:15) How great a God is he? Jesus “death” and “resurrection” was foretold in the very beginning. Our salvation was planned at creation. Likewise so was the defeat of Satan, death and Sin. Again how great a God is he?
Zia… i ask you? Can you believe in a God that died for you?
1. What is meaning of RISEN? Nobody tells.
“But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.” Act 2:24
2. Begotten, as per Mathew Chapter 1:1 is conceiving through male agency. Nobody explains.
It is the genealogy of Adam through to Joesph his earthly father. Christ was foretold to been born of a woman.
3. Death came through sin of Adam. Adam was not the first man on earth. He lived 6000 years ago. Many men and women were living and dying before him. What was their sin? Jesus did not preach about original sin.
Where men and women living and dying before Adam. God created the animal before man.
4. Jesus having two status, perfect man and perfect god at same time is a riddle nobody can explain and nobody explains.
Jesus is God. It is simple you just need faith.
5. Why god had to come in the world to teach people, to live, eat and drink and die in the world. And once he had died (a questionable cursed death according to Old Testament) on the cross, why he had to rise again? There is no proof of Jesus death on cross. So There was no curse too. 65 reasons from holy Bible have been posted on this forum to prove that. Nobody replies to that.
Jesus’s death on the cross is recorded in the writings of Josesphus so this is fact.
6. The first 12 years of Jesus life was spent in Egypt. Next 18 years were spent where? Not known. He suddenly appears at age 30, starts preaching. He is caught within 3 years, put on the cross, suffered so much that it was to the point of hopelessness.
No hopelessness. His death has meaning. Are you really questioning God?
7. He was a true peaceful man of God.
yes
8. Was it a man on the cross or the god? He cried out to his God, Eli, Eli, Lama sabaqatani?? My Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken me? He was reminding God Almighty about the promise of his safety that he will not die on the cross. God needs no reminder. God saved him from death on cross. He fainted, was looked after with medicines in a spacious tomb and resuscitated. That was a miracle for the sake of Jesus a.s.
No burial rites were performed and he was not buried. His legs had not been broken… He was the same man who was put on the cross.
While on the cross Jesus (whom is God) experIenced separation from God. God cannot stand sin….because Jesus was made sin he had to separate him from Himself
9. He was seen walking 70 miles to Galilee.
Can any Christian please tell me what did Jesus do as a God in the world before crucifixion? We know he did many things (all things) as a man and a man of God. What did he do specifically as a God?
he was seen risen, walking 70 miles away to show the resurrection was perfect. He rose Lazurus from the dead. Does that count?
10. I am sure the Quran has better description of Jesus and his mother and his grand mother. There is much more respect for all of them in Quran, if any Christian wants to read the Quran. It is (translation is) available in many languages.
We don’t need a description of Mary or her mother. It is God that saves not her. She was just a woman.
i hope this answers some of your questions Ghulam? Just open your heart and believe. Seek the truth and the truth shall find you.
Robert Ward, thanks for very brief explanations. At least you have tried. You may believe what you like. I have the following to say about your post:
Robert: While on the cross Jesus (whom is God) experIenced separation from God. God cannot stand sin….because Jesus was made sin he had to separate him from Himself.
My note: That is interesting Jesus shifting from God to man and man to God. It is something new we are hearing from you. Your reply is very complicated, more mystery than Trinity.
Robert:he was seen risen, walking 70 miles away to show the resurrection was perfect. He rose Lazurus from the dead. Does that count?
My note: Even if he had not died on cross and he had fainted, after becoming well back to senses, he would have risen.
About Lazarus, Jesus said “he is not dead”. It means Lazarus was not dead. People thought he had died. Jesus denied that.
Robert:We don’t need a description of Mary or her mother. It is God that saves not her. She was just a woman.
My note: She was the mother of your god. You have your description of events in Bible. Description is needed and being used in your preaching. But you do not give importance to description.
Robert:i hope this answers some of your questions Ghulam? Just open your heart and believe. Seek the truth and the truth shall find you.
My note: Thanks again Robert Ward for your effort.
Ghulam
Your note: She was the mother of your god. You have your description of events in Bible. Description is needed and being used in your preaching. But you do not give importance to description.
Ghulam….two things we believe she was the Mother of our God. But you know?…..she was also the mother of your God. Your God and the Christian God are one and the same.
So in regards to Mary. She was a holy woman. The holiest on the Earth probably since creation so hence Gods used her to carry Christ. But she still is only a woman. Not the Catholic version…she is still a woman capable and able to Sin whereas Christ cannot sin. It is Christ that saves not Mary. No where in the bible do you find any salvation through any other than Christ Jesus Gods only Son. Again no where in the Bible does is say that Mary can save. This is a false belief that you have.
A PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE FOR YOU. IT IS FOUND IN ACT 4: 8-12
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’[a]
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
hoping you can understand
Rob
Ghulam, what Rob has said I have said ad nauseam before too. Surprised you are saying “it is something new”.
I have not got a reply to this question from you or anyone else till date
CAN GOD WHO CAN DO ANYTHING (affirmed by the koran) NOT BECOME MAN to show man the way back to Him?
Another question for which I have not got a reply from you or anyone else till date.
HOW COME THE BODY OF JESUS BEING CARRIED WAS NOT NOTICED by anybody in a town teeming with people for the Passover?
…
God is Omnipotent, but, cannot do what is contradictory, as He is All Wise also.
As He is decided to be truthful, He cannot lie. He cannot make a stone, which is too heavy to lift!
He cannnot make divine flesh.
Flesh is limited in space and Transcendent God of Abrahamic faiths is beyond matter, time and space.
Jesus did not die on the cross, so there is no dead body. There is the resuscitated body, which Thomas felt and poked to feel the wounds.
Did Jesus rise in a physical body or a spiritual one?
Zia Shah,
When Jesus died on the cross, His body died, but the Spirit of Jesus WAS ALIVE. The Spirit of God NEVER DIES.
But when HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD He rose with a body that was both physical & spirit (not spiritual as you say).
Check the encounter with Mary Magdalene in the Garden.
Wow……
ghulam
“HOW COME THE BODY OF JESUS BEING CARRIED WAS NOT NOTICED by anybody in a town teeming with people for the Passover?”
That was because he was risen.
And Zia
“He cannnot make divine flesh.”
Do you doubt the power of God? He is our creator. He made Adam, He made me and he made you. He made this earth, the birds of the sky, the fish in the sea and the animals on the land. He made the air that we breath. He made bacteria as well that cause disease. He can cure diseases that the bacteria cause. He has made the heavens above and the insects that we cannot see with our own eyes. He made the angels in heaven and the cosmos. The entire universe shows his handiworks and how magnificent he is. Everything we see, hear, feel and touch he has made it.
And yet after all that you still can put a limit on God’s power.
Zia Shah,
“God CANNOT make divine flesh” is a wrong way of putting it. It is not just “divine flesh” but the “Word of God MADE flesh”. There is a lot of difference in both the terms.
Jesus DID NOT have “divine flesh” He was as much man as you and me & many times in the Gospels Christ CLAIMED DEITY. This is not saying apples are oranges but the Gospel Truth.
However where you are right is in saying “Flesh is limited in space and Transcendent God of Abrahamic faiths is beyond matter, time and space.” which has a good response in John 3:16 which encapsulates what God’s BOUNDLESS LOVE for humans can do.
…
@Ashok Saldanha:
He (Jesus) was as much man as you and me & many times in the Gospels Christ CLAIMED DEITY
————————–
Ashok, we would have benefitted if you had posted the exact words from the gospel. Jesus never could claim to be divine (a DEITY) amongst his Jewish people. He could never do or speak against the law of Moses a.s.
Jesus was a servient, subordinate messenger of God under the command words of Moses a.s. You are trying to make Jesus a god in the Jewish society. Jesus was not an ignorant person.
He knew what he was doing. He knew the people he was sent to and he knew their teachings. The Jews never had any other God except the One Supreme God. Please do not deny that. You have the Bible OT attached with your NT. Does that preach Trinity? Your present Bible is a new wine in old bottles. It will destroy the old as well as the new wine.
It is sin to associate any one with God Almighty. To accuse a high level messenger (Jesus) of polytheism is the greatest crime. You have spun a net of falsehood around the Father and son business. That will never be accepted by God.
For such a bad teaching of Shirk (Polytheism) from Jesus a.s. you should show multiple clear words from gospel. You cannot show them except to twist the meaning of some verses.
The teaching of polytheism in Holy Bible should be explicit, in clear words, at many places, to be accepted. But there are no such words in Gospel.
You have spread the Bible books in whole world. People can read them. They ask you to show those words by which Jesus claimed DEITY.
It is not a simple matter which can be passed of easily. It is not like eating apples or oranges. It is the very basic rule of all religions, i.e. Unity of God Almighty.
The church is gone on Hindu practices and Greek mythology, who have gods and goddesses! At the same time, church is sticking to One God theory. i.e. enjoying the butter from both sides.
According to present teachings of Church, Jesus only came to claim being God and dying for the sins of others… He did not have any other mission….. That is not right. Even prophets do not come for such idle things and church is attributing such things to Jesus Christ who is a high level messenger amongst all other messengers for the Jews. Jesus was the last messenger for the Jews. Please try to accept and spread some truths. Wassalam.
Ghulam Sarwar, Jesus WAS CRUCIFIED by the Jews BECAUSE HE CLAIMED HE WAS GOD. This was so the last time I checked the Gospels.
Your “Jesus never could claim to be divine (a DEITY) amongst his Jewish people. He could never do or speak against the law of Moses. Jesus was a servient, subordinate messenger of God under the command words of Moses a.s. You are trying to make Jesus a god in the Jewish society.” DOES NOT HOLD WATER.
Your misleading conceptions are fantastic to read “According to present teachings of Church, Jesus only came to claim being God and dying for the sins of others… He did not have any other mission…..”
Surprising because I HAVE NEVER HEARD OR READ OR SEEN the Church teaching this fake doctrine put out by you. May be you could enlighten me as to which encyclical says this.
I am still waiting for your reply to TAUHEED which you seem to be side stepping by giving me a reply with WAHID. Both are not the same my friend.
Dear Ashok, we would have benefitted if you had posted the exact words from the gospel.
Jesus (a.s) preached for three years only. At what time he started telling people that he was a god?
It was the elders of the Jews, his own elders who wanted to catch him and kill him on any pretext that they accused him of that blame of claiming to be the god.
It is surprising how the Christians accept those bad blames and claims of the enemies of Jesus. It is impossible to help the Christians about such things. Those were the accusations against Jesus to catch and kill him on the cross. The church is happily accepting those accusations against Jesus Christ. Surprising!
If Jesus had claimed to be God then why many people took him as prophet. Jews were expecting and waiting for a prophet not for any god.
The Jews were waiting for three persons at that time. They asked John the Baptist: 1. Are you the Christ? He denied to be Christ.
2. Are you Elias? He denied that he was Elias.
3. Are you that prophet? He denied being THAT PROPHET. (John ch.1)
They never asked if he was the God. Because they were not expecting any god. A person was to come amongst the Jews. They knew better who will come and a god was never in their mind. So wherefrom the church has produced a god amongst men?
It is all much later when Paul went to Greek mythology and wanted to convert the greeks and they had many gods, he made Jesus into a god. He perverted all the teachings of Jesus.
I said church has happily accepted the accusations made against Jesus. That is one bad thing.
The other bad thing is: When some one said that Jesus was cursed, the church accepted that too happily and made Jesus into a cursed person. And happily accepted that law as a curse.
How can Jesus be a cursed person? It is not the curse of the people which has any value. It is the curse from God that matters. A cursed person is far away from the mercy of God Almighty.
How can a religion proceed well in the world if its law is cursed, its leader (Jesus) is cursed!
The prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. never taught or believed any of these bad things. He honored and respected Jesus and his mother as holy persons.
The Christians are not giving any respect to Muhammad as a good man and a prophet. Then what do the Christians expect from the Muslims!
My last few lines:
Jesus never allowed his followers to tell any one that he was the Christ. How could he be so bold as to tell every one that he was God? Just think over please.
Ghulam Sarwar, Muslim DO NOT LIKE Paul because he always called a spade a spade NEVER A SHOVEL.
Paul & PETER (how you’ll forget Peter, is beyond me) were transformed people. Paul AFTER HIS CONVERSION from Christian hater to Christ lover & Peter from a DENIER OF CHRIST to someone READY TO DIE FOR CHRIST. One does not become that overnight – THEY DID.
If you read Paul with an open mind you will find an incident of a mention of a statue “TO AN UNKNOWN GOD” & Paul using that to explain to the Greeks about Christ & NOT LIKE what you propound AS USUAL without any roots saying “It is all much later when Paul went to Greek mythology and wanted to convert the greeks and they had many gods, he made Jesus into a god. He perverted all the teachings of Jesus.”
Ghulam
Jesus’s Deity……
John 8:58-59 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Matthew 16:15-17 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”
John 11:25-27 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”
John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God’s Son’?
Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
is that enough?
Rob
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4joi2P9lupw&w=470&h=275%5D
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUQb9hXUUco&w=420&h=315%5D
For additional Reading
The one who sent me (Jesus) is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him. (John 8:29)
Zia
l have no need to watch your videos. God’s holy word provides all the evidence of Jesus. Backed up by historical records. Not sure what you mean by quoting the above verse but the whole passage give”s a far better meaning.
21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
25 “Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
…
Rob
Rob. What you quoted is what a prophet would say and correct at the time. Unfortunate that you think you should not see the video suggested by Dr. Zia. Anyway, goes to show that you do not want to learn more. Fine. For you your religion and for us our religion.
Jesus was a word from God. It means it was a message to Mother Mary, an advance news, even before her marriage to Joseph the Carpenter. It was word telling her that she will have a grown up son (Ghulam). It meant that the son will live to good age.
Mary rightly pointed out to the Holy Spirit (angel Gabriel) how she could have a son when she was not married and she was not any spoiled lady.
At that time she was living in the Jewish temple under the care of the prophet Zakariyya a.s.
She had no property or wealth or any hope of marriage. She herself was property of Jewish public, any body and every body had a right on her (i.e. to own her.)
In such a time of no hope of any marriage, the word came to Mary, of a grown up son. It was a surprising as well as good news.
When her menses started, she could not live in the temple any more. So she had to be handed over to some one. There were many contenders, every man tried to claim her as his wife. There was a struggle and much contest and even some quarrel.
Then it was decided to cast lots (Lottery) to find out who will have Mary.
Joseph the Carpenter, a very good man was the lucky one and Mary was given to him in marriage.
All the above that I have written is from the Quran. I will now pass one more good remark about Mary who is called Maryam in the Quran. We can say that God (Allah) chose the husband of Mary. She is the lucky lady whose husband was chosen for her by the God Almighty. Wassalam.
Too much stress is placed on the birth of the son, as to how he will be born. That is not necessary. People forget that the word was not only about the grant of a grown up son. There was much more in the word. The qualities and the good work of the son was also described. That was more important. And there is no mention of a child (any baby boy) there.
People forget all those good words and all that good work of the son of Mary. Rather, people put all the stress is on how that son will be born.
In my previous post, I had described few things from chapter 3 of the Quran. Much more is described in chapter 19 of the Quran where it is told that Maryam moved from her house to some eastern place as per her waqf, being dedicated to serve God. Her mother left her in the temple and after that there was no contact with her family.
While there in the temple, a very handsome full grown man appeared to her in a vision. She sought refuge with God from that person. It indicates that she was so pious person that she could not entertain the sight of a man even in her dream.
At that time, word came to Mary because that man was an angel who had brought the word to Mary.
A good dialogue is described in the Quran between the messenger and Mary and it is worth reading. Christians should read that and become aware about Jesus and Mary as described in the Quran. Wassalam.
Rob you have messed up the evangelizing of the church by saying that you will not watch the video i.e. in your post of 23 August. I met a Catholic missionary who said that he will not take any book from Muslims because he was forbidden by the church. How bad, he was distributing books amongst Muslims!
Rob, you have written: (23rd August)
25 “Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father……..you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him. (Rob did not give reference)
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That is right. Jesus is saying that he was sent with some message. That proves that Jesus was a messenger and a prophet. He is claiming to be a messenger. That is what the Muslims believe. Jesus does not say that he is a god.
Many people believed in him as a messenger. Many believed that he was a prophet.(as in Bible NT)
Muslims also believe that Jesus was the last prophet in the line of Jews and was sent to the Children of Israel only.
…
Ghulam you have said …..”That is right. Jesus is saying that he was sent with some message. That proves that Jesus was a messenger and a prophet. He is claiming to be a messenger. That is what the Muslims believe. Jesus does not say that he is a god.”
have you read the 5 passages i have quoted above? He clearly claims to be the Son of God and also to be truine. How many passages do you need?
Rob
Robert Ward
The catch is that God is used with a singular pronoun in the Old Testament thousands of times and even in the New Testament, Jesus is son of man scores of time.
Actually, leading Christian apologists have recognized that there is no Trinity in the Old Testament.
Please see the links below in this comment below and videos in the comments below to find the references for my claims here:
A Cordial Invitation to the Pope Benedict XVI to Islam
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqfuPGeZQbY&w=480&h=275%5D
Read further: Trinity: A Rabbi Versus a Christian Apologist
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4joi2P9lupw&w=480&h=275%5D
Zia….who is Jesus then taking about here.
Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He is the great ” I am ” of the Old Testament. Whatever colour you try and paint it he is the Son of God and there is no other way to the Father but through him.
i could give you many many more verses from the old testament through to the New. But you are blinded due to your unbelief.
i do truely hope you open your eyes and heart at some stage. As we all have an appointment with God where we shall all be judged and there is no salvation through any other than Christ Jesus and without him nothing awaits unbelievers but a lost eternity..
Rob
That there is no ‘salvation without Christ’ was correct at the time of Prophet Jesus’s mission. Out of date now…
“COMPLETELY WRONG”
Rafig…….by your reasoning that would make God out of date too as the Bible and the Quran was written when?
silly silly statement.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus IS the Son of God. We only need one verse to say it to believe with confidence that HE is the Son of God. But there are countless verses in the Bible stating HE is the Son of God.
Our discussions are going in circles. You state that Jesus is Son of God and we state that he is a Prophet. Both have presented their views and TMT has published both views. And now it is for the readers to make up their mind … “for you your religion and for me my religion” …
Robert Ward, please tell us whose son is Jesus. Jesus was well known as the son of Joseph the Carpenter. Every one knew him as son of Joseph.
Jesus used to call himself son of man, many times and it is written in the Bible.
Some people thought and said that Jesus was the son of David, the King.
Jesus used to call himself son of God but he called other people also sons of God.
Only once there seems to be a reference to God calling Jesus (from a cloud) as his son and that was at the time of his cleansing (baptizing) at the river Jordan by John the Baptist.
Quran tells the best answer in which there is no doubt. Quran refers to Jesus as son of Mary. Mary being most pious, Jesus is related to her.
Now, we want to know from Robert who is the real father of Jesus? Is it Joseph?. Is it David? Is it God? Jesus admits himself as the son of man?
Why is church making so much complications? Already there is much complication about Trinity and Original sin and man-God teachings.
Let us please find out who is the father of Jesus, and if at all Jesus is the son of God, we like to know how he was conceived. Was it physical conception? God forbids.
Was he just spiritually begotten? The church never makes it clear, just like many other words used in biblical literature, like RISEN.
We believe much of the gospel and Quran is telling us much about Jesus. Believing and believing without proper ways (Rationality) is useless. It will not get us any where. Religion should be based on sound and strong foundations. Otherwise, there is no end to wrong beliefs. Any one can believe that God is a tree.
Dear Robert, Your post of Ist. Sept:
Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus.
He is the great ” I am ” of the Old Testament.
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Every day we are getting new words, new versions of bible, amended words, changed words. I am sure, the way I read the gospel, Jesus did not reply in above words. He had replied, “You say it.” That is what he said before Pilate too.. He denied being God.
“You say it” had then been changed to, “It is the way you say it.”
At another place the words of Jesus “Before Abraham was, I am.” have also been changed to “before Abraham was BORN, I am”. What a bad show of alterations in the bible being done every day. It is making bible most doubtful and corrupted book.
We object to all such changes. There is no original bible and knowing the rule “Old is gold”, we expect that older versions of bible should be preserved and presented. Thank you.
Ghulam
The Gospel of Luke Chapter 1 is one of my favourite for the conception of Christ
Luke 1 : 26-37
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
verses 35 and 37 are quite powerful.
thanks again
Rob
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xH93PSZ6fQ&w=480&h=275%5D
Thank you, Thank you Robert Ward for presenting the verses from chapter one of Luke. It is interesting reading. I have opened luke ch. 1 of gateway Bible and read the first three chapters 1,2,3. Now I will read Mark also, some time, and get to know more things.
In the meantime, I ask you, do you have a copy of the Quran? Do you read the Quran? Please let me know so that I understand your position and level.
Thank you, Wassalam.