God the Father is referred to as God more than 1300 times in the New Testament alone, which forms only 25% of the Bible. References to Jesus as God are a couple or very few at best and are contextual misinterpretations or later interpolations.
Sir Anthony Buzzard has a very well written and useful book The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound.
Sir Anthony Buzzard states in the very beginning of this debate that Unity of God is a simple and easily comprehensible teaching, yet very elegant in my opinion, he stresses that Trinity is an unnecessary complexity. If our Christian readers become Muslims, they will find that the Islamic creed, “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet,” is very simple yet elegant!
The Unitarians build their case on what is central and fundamental and explain away allegoric and peripheral in light of that and the Trinitarians do the exact opposite and no wonder their teachings give rise to countless contradictions and absurdities, some of which are highlighted in the articles linked below. One I would mention here, a literal son, who is co-eternal with his Father, as the Trinitarians will have us believe, is logically and philosophically, simply silly. The Father has to at some point in time father the literal son and predate him, otherwise the son is literally not a son! Additionally, even if Jesus was magically eternal before, when he died for three days and three nights by the Trinitarian, childish counting, he is not eternal anymore. The understanding of what the debaters are doing is certainly in light of a profound verse of the Holy Quran, from Sura Aal-e-Imran, as Sir Anthony Buzzard focuses on central and fundamental and Drew Ayers, like any other Trinitarian, obsesses over what is ‘susceptible of different interpretations.’ The Quran says:
He (Allah) it is Who has sent down to thee (Muhammad) the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. (Al Quran 3:8)
Trinitarians choose to obsess over Jesus and God the Father but seldom or infrequently trouble the Holy Ghost. In their obsession about the person of Jesus of Nazareth, the Trinitarian apologists choose to read the Triune God, every time word God is mentioned in the Old Testament, which is hundreds of times, but, for 2000 years before Jesus, none of the Jews ever read the word in Triune terms and understood only one God, who is God the Father, in the later Trinitarian Christian understanding.
Two natures of Jesus: another Christian mystery!
Trinity: Explained from the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible
The Holy Ghost: The mysteries of Trinity
Is God the Father the Creator, the Trinity as a whole or are there three Creators?
Categories: CHRISTIANITY, Uncategorized
Jesus (peace be upoon him ) is a honuorable messenger of Allaah (s.w.t) I.e. God as know to english speakers, but not God , since God is The Creator of The Universe, something no man can do.
Neither is Jesus (P.b.u.h.) the son of God, because God is Suprahuman & Supralogical.
Altho Jesus was imbued with The Spirit of Allaah (s.w.t.) , he is still a man, albeit an extraordinary because of the miracles he performed by virtue of the power Allah (s.w.t ) gave to him.
For further clarity , for the confused mind, i suggest one reads the book : as translated by Lonsdale & Laura Ragg in 1907, called ; The Gospel of Barnabas , & carefully note what Jesus (P. B. U. H.) said about himself to Barnabas (who was Jesus’s disciple.
It is nice to see my good debate with Anthony posted here. Of course we would be willing to discuss the topic of the deity of Christ with our Muslim friends in a publicly moderated discussion…
Very nice to hear from you. Could you please give some details about your CV and what sort of venue you have in mind. Thanks
Certainly I would be open to a Christian or Muslim audience or mixed. Tallahassee,Florida is my nearest city though a large Muslim organization exists in Panama City, Fl which may show an interest in supporting a dialogue of such. I also have a debate partner so we could incorporate that format for a more thorough discussion. We are also open to other topics concerning Islam and Christianity. I could also travel out of state (not far though:)
if an interest or support would be shown for such a discussion. You have my debate so you know my basic presentation. Do you have material i.e. DVD’s or articles refuting the deity of Christ? What do you think? Looking forward to your response.
Nice to hear your ideas. I am glad to know that you have a debate partner also.
How about making it a panel discussion? Would you be able to invite Sir Anthony Buzzard to such a panel and we will try to invite a Rabbi to such a forum.
Please familiarize yourself to how Ahmadiyya understanding about Jesus, may peace be on him, differs from that of Sunni view, especially details of events around the time of crucifixion. For example read this article:
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross
Zia, you have my email, so let us correspond via that venue and we can discuss this further.
Thanks Drew. I will send you email. Best Regards!