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What Can the 8 Million Coptic Christians Teach Us?

St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church in Bellaire, Texas (Greater Houston). There are about 4 million Copts living outside of Egypt, and are known as the Diaspora Copts.

St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church in Bellaire, Texas (Greater Houston). There are about 4 million Copts living outside of Egypt, and are known as the Diaspora Copts.

Written and collected by Zia H Shah MD, Chief Editor of the Muslim Times

The Copts are the native Christians of Egypt.  Christianity was the religion of the vast majority from 400–800 A.D. and the majority after the Muslim conquest until the mid-10th century [13] and remains the faith of a significant minority population. Historically they spoke the Coptic language, a direct descendant of the Demotic Egyptian spoken in the Roman era, but it has been near-extinct and mostly limited to liturgical use since the 18th century. They now speak Arabic.

Copts in Egypt constitute the largest Christian community in the Middle East, as well as the largest religious minority in the region, accounting for an estimated 10% of the Egyptian population.[14]

The total population of Egypt is almost 80 million, so approximately, there are 8 million Coptic Christians in Egypt.

Most Copts adhere to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[15][16][17] The remainder of around 800,000 are divided between theCoptic Catholic and various Coptic Protestant churches.

Copts can teach the world many things.

They can teach us the benefit of circumcision, as they are the largest Christian group that practices male circumcision, like the Jews and the Muslims.

They can also teach us that just because they exist, Islam is not a violent religion and has safeguarded the rights, especially the right to life, of the minorities.  They can teach us that the Muslim rule in the medieval ages, may not have been perfect or uniform, but, unlike the Spanish Inquisitions of 16th century, they did not convert all Christians to Islam by force, kill them or banish them.

They can teach us that Arabic is a beautiful language.  Arabic is now used in the services of the Coptic Orthodox Church for the lessons from the Bible and for many of the variable hymns.

names-of-Jesus

They can teach us that Jesus had one nature like all of us rather than two natures as the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon claimed.  Jesus did not have two natures or multiple personalities, the Coptics, the Muslims and the Jews agree.

The Council of Chalcedon is numbered as the fourth ecumenical council by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and most Protestants. Oriental Orthodox Churches do not agree with the conduct and the proceedings of the Council, commonly calling it “Chalcedon, the Ominous”.  Followers of the Council believe its most important achievement was to issue the Chalcedonian Definition, stating that Jesus is “perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man.”[2]

The Christian doctrines especially the nature of Jesus, can be best understood by studying the history of the Church, especially the Ecumenical Councils, starting with the First Ecumenical Council in Nicaea in 325 CE.  According to Encyclopedia Britannica:

In the 4th and 5th centuries a theological conflict arose between the Copts and the Greek-speaking Romans, or Melchites, in Egypt. The Council of Chalcedon (451) rejected monophysite doctrine—the belief that Jesus Christ had only a divine, not a human, nature—and affirmed both his divinity and his humanity. The Melchites recognized the outcome of Chalcedon. The Coptic church, however, became one of the several Eastern churches that rejected the Christological language about the two natures of Christ agreed upon at Chalcedon. Yet while the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches denounced these Eastern churches as monophysite heretics, the Coptic church and other pre-Chalcedonian or (since the 20th century) Oriental Orthodox churches adopted a theological position called miaphysitism. Confessing the statement by St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 375–444) proclaiming the “one incarnate nature of the Word” of God, miaphysites declared that both Christ’s humanity and divinity were equally present through the Incarnation in one single nature (hence the Greek prefix mia, “same”) as the Word made flesh. Rather than denying Christ’s humanity, as they were accused of doing, the Coptic and other miaphysite churches gave both his humanity and his divinity equal presence in the person of Christ.[1]

The discussions about nature of Jesus may be complex and convoluted, after all it is not easy to change a man into God!

But by bringing the discussion to the nature of Jesus, the Copts can bring all Christians, a step closer to the Muslim understanding that Jesus, may peace be on him, had only one nature and ultimately to the fact that he was a noble prophet of God and divine only in that sense, no more.

If humanity could have consensus about the nature of Jesus, the two billion Christians, a billion and a half Muslims and some 15 million Jews, of the Abrahamic faiths, will be coming closer and many a religious, social and political struggles will be dampened, if not eliminated.

The nature of Jesus is an age old question.  According to the Gospel of Mark, the first person to ask this question was Jesus himself, “But what about you Peter?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” (Mark 8:29)

In modern terminology, we will phrase this question as, is Jesus one person, two persons, human and divine, or multiple personalities?

The early Christians thought of him in different ways, a Jewish prophet, a teacher, a rabbi and even as God incarnate.  However, the group that won the theological and political debates in history, is referred to as proto-orthodox group.  These were those who were later applauded or cherished by the Catholic Church, as it came to believe that Jesus had two natures, perfect man and fully divine.

This to me would seem like two persons?  So I agree with the Copts, for taking issue with the Council of Chalcedon, on the matter of counting!

For a detailed discussion on the issue of nature of Jesus, let me refer the readers to another of my short articles, Is Jesus a Man, a God or a Hybrid?

The Coptic Christians can also teach us something about Unitarianism as opposed to Trinitarianism, as Arius, against whom the Nicene Creed was formulate in 325 CE, was from the Church of Alexandria

Last but not the least, they can teach us a more fair election system in which the final draw is truly determined by chance or Providence.  According to Encyclopedia Britannica:

When the patriarch dies, an electoral college, predominantly of laymen, selects three duly qualified monks at least 50 years of age as candidates for the office of patriarch. Among these three, the final choice is made by lot after prayer.[1]

Reference

1. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/136928/Coptic-Orthodox-Church-of-Alexandria

 

Categories: Africa, CHRISTIANITY, Islamophobia

16 replies ›

  2. Zia, I seriously take issue with you regarding the divinity of Christ. You are all over the place trying to prove that “Christ was ONLY a man as per the Koran” what you have not yet replied to me is that the Koran says that “Christ will come at the end of time TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD” Please let me know who can be this judge & do this if not God.
    Secondly you add that “The discussions about nature of Jesus may be complex and convulated, (sic) after all it is not easy to change a man into God!”
    Yes it is not easy to change a man into God BUT can’t God become man to lead us back to Him?

    You further add “But by bringing the discussion to the nature of Jesus, the Copts can bring all Christians, a step closer to the Muslim understanding that Jesus, may peace be on him, had only one nature and ultimately to the fact that he was a noble prophet of God and divine only in that sense, no more.” Here you are contradicting yourself, by saying a prophet can be divine. Only God CAN BE Divine.

    I just love the way you latch on to the straws that come your way supposedly “proving that Christ was ONLY a man”

    Reply

  3. Never mind, who is latching at straws? Please read the following book:

    Muslim, Christian and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share

    A book by Dr. David Liepert

    Faith-based conflict and religious violence threaten our world. This timely and provocative work challenges the stereotypes and misconceptions that fuel these conflicts to answer the question that lies at the nexus of faith, religion, politics, history, and current events: Can those of different faiths live together in peace? Drawing on personal experience, history, and scripture, this carefully researched book exposes both the differences and similarities between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam and reveals the surprising truth about what they really teach at their core. Dr. David Liepert recounts his own journey from Christianity to become a convert of Islam and what he learned in the process. Liepert, a prominent North American Muslim, also candidly explores how and why Islam has gone from being a religion that sustained a vibrant multicultural and multireligious civilization to the one we have today. In the end, he concludes that all three faiths, as originally intended, are designed to live and work together. The happy ending we all crave, he says, might be closer than we think. This important book is a call to peace-not just for Muslims, Christians, and Jews but for all of us.

    Good Books in Bad Times (HarperOne blog) wrote about the book:

    Religion is arguably the most controversial topic in history. There is no other subject that is more hotly debated-or more carefully avoided. . . . What it takes is someone who is actually willing to confront the situation by asking the right-albeit uncomfortable-questions. In his book entitled Muslim, Christian and Jew: Find a Path to Peace our Faiths can Share, Liepert distinguishes himself by doing just that. He dives headfirst into his piece by asking the complex question of why there is so much conflict between the world’s three most popular religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Using impeccably researched excerpts from a variety of religious scriptures such as the Bible, the Torah and the Koran, Liepert argues what many other authors would be hesitant to admit: that all three faiths essentially preach the same lessons and values. He emphasizes his key points in the form of bullet points at the end of each chapter, a clever structural mechanism for readers who, like myself, get lost when deciphering even the most lucid of religious texts. Despite the content’s educational qualities, it is not to be confused with anything textbook. Liepert’s tone is as anecdotal as it is matter-of-fact, keeping the reader hooked through tales of his journey from questioning Christianity as a child to finding himself as a Muslim in adulthood. He effortlessly draws his personal experiences with religion into the book’s overall message-that it is possible to find yourself through one faith while also supporting others. In today’s religious climate, this straightforward and open-minded approach to the matter is more than stimulating; it is vital.

    Midwest Book Review said:

    The Abrahamic religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have a great deal in common with respect to their advocacy of peace, justice, the brotherhood of man, compassion, generosity to the less fortunate, honesty, and the honoring of the family. Yet down through the centuries there is a long history of violence between all three of these communities that continues to be manifest today in acts of terrorism, war, and discrimination. Must it always be so? That is the question addressed in the pages of Muslim, Christian, and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share by Canadian author David Liepert, who draws upon scripture, history, his many years of experience and expertise with respect to interfaith relations, and his own personal journey from being a Christian to converting to Islam. Peace is not only possible, but ultimately inevitable-if we are willing to work at it and practice the tenets that are the foundation of all three faiths. Highly recommended for community library ‘Religion/Spirituality’ collections, Muslim, Christian, and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share is especially recommended reading for anyone concerned with the continuing parochial animosities that have caused so much misery in the name of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    Dr. Imam Hamid Slimi, Chairman of the Canadian Council of Imams wrote:

    Dr. David Liepert is a brilliant new North American Muslim voice. He has put much work into his tireless efforts, building bridges between our faiths and civilizations. I know his commitment to dialogue, respect, and understanding among different faiths, and I hope this work will be another step towards that vision.

    S. Abdallah Schleifer, Reviewer for the Oxford Journal of Islamic Studies, Distinguished Professor of Journalism at the American University in Cairo, former Cairo bureau chief for NBC News, said:

    One danger of interfaith dialogue is that differences in theology or dogma can be so smoothed over or diluted that the integrity of each religion is sacrificed for the sake of an ecumenical consensus. Dr. David Liepert’s Muslim, Christian, and Jew takes a very different path. As much a fascinating spiritual autobiography as a plea for interfaith understanding, Liepert (who has been engaged in interfaith dialogue for many years) confronts rather than waters down differences in a textual criticism of the three Abrahamic religions. This often takes the form of an internal dialogue, particularly when dealing with his own conversion from an evangelical Christianity to what might be described as an evangelical Islam. The binding thread to this book is a recurrent and impassioned plea for the practitioners of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism to transcend their undeniable differences and relatively recent past histories on the basis of that ‘Common Word’ shared by all three religions-love of God and love of neighbor-and to apply this core conviction existentially and not just affirm it.

    Order in Amazon.com

    Reply

  4. There is nothing wrong to learn the truth from the 8 Million Coptic .
    .
    Allah commanded Muslim to learn from all notions QS 49:13.
    .
    Only Extremist Muslim hate the 8 Million Coptic who live in Egypt.
    .
    All love

    Reply

  5. The book by David Liepert is excellent for interfaith harmony. If Christian Copts were Unitarians, they considered Jesus as a man, a man of God and divine in the sense of being innocent, that was all, an excellent belief. Then their way of electing their leader seems to be very good.

    Many people, during the life time of Jesus believed him to be a teacher, a prophet. He used to call the Almighty God as his father and Father of many others too. If Jesus can become a son of God because of the Father then many others who are sons can also be sons of God, in the same manner.

    Man cannot be God and God will not become man. There is no such rule that God would become a man. There is no need. God has many angels. God need not become a man. He can use the angels to do all that He wishes. But even an angel is not a man or woman. Man is superior, being accountable. Angels are not accountable. Angels do not eat or drink and do not make any mistake or commit sin. They just obey the commands given to them. They are not free to decide what to do.
    Mankind has been given the intellect and are free to decide. That is why mankind is superior to all other creation.
    Church has broken away from the accepted way of life of the Jews and Muslims. Jesus was a Jew and followed the law of Moses a.s. Church has accepted other gods beside One God Almighty. There is no example for that in the past. There is no specific verse in the gospels that Jesus is God. Jesus called himself a son of God. God never called Jesus as a son, except a small few words coming from a dove in the cloud… That is not enough to make Jesus as a son and God. There must be more of such words for such an important issue. There must be many verses explicitly stating that Jesus is son of God and a god. One doubtful voice from a could (after Jesus baptism in river Jordan) cannot make Jesus as God or god or son of god. He remains son of Joseph the carpenter.
    Jesus remained in Egypt for initial 12 years of his life. Then nothing is known of his next 18 years. Jesus a.s. suddenly appears on the scene at the age of 30 and he is preaching about the kingdom of God. (Not his own kingdom). He could not preach more than 3 years and he was denied and rejected and caught and put on the Cross to be killed.
    It was a divine plan that according to the wishes and prayers of Jesus, he was saved from death on the Cross….. He survived and walked and ate and drank and walked away (eastward) from the place where he was a condemned man…. and could never appear in public…
    Whatever good work Jesus a.s. had done in his efforts and sermonizing, Paul came around later and destroyed all the good teachings of Jesus a.s.

    Muslims have much to learn from the Coptic Christians. May Allah bless them for their support of the truth, wassalam.

    Reply

  6. Zia Shah, Ghulam Sarwar, Alatif at the risk of sounding repetitive I am still waiting for your reply to “Christ was ONLY a man as per the Koran” what you have not yet replied to me is that the VERY SAME Koran says that “Christ will come at the end of time TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD” Please let me know who can be this judge & and who can do this if not God?”
    Secondly you add that “The discussions about nature of Jesus may be complex and convulated, (sic) after all it is not easy to change a man into God!”
    Your whole long thesis exhorting the lessons to be learnt from the Coptics comes to nought, because you have not answered the core thrust of your earlier post regarding the “divinity of Christ”.

    Reply

  7. Wow!!! Ghulam Sarwar, I think you have with “Church has broken away from the accepted way of life of the Jews and Muslims. Jesus was a Jew and followed the law of Moses a.s. Church has accepted other gods beside One God Almighty. There is no example for that in the past. There is no specific verse in the gospels that Jesus is God. Jesus called himself a son of God. God never called Jesus as a son, except a small few words coming from a dove in the cloud… That is not enough to make Jesus as a son and God. There must be more of such words for such an important issue. There must be many verses explicitly stating that Jesus is son of God and a god. One doubtful voice from a could (after Jesus baptism in river Jordan) cannot make Jesus as God or god or son of god. He remains son of Joseph the carpenter……………….Paul came around later and destroyed all the good teachings of Jesus a.s.” just written a new “Gospel according to Ghulam Sarwar”.
    DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE in what you have posted or do you just want to see your name in print?

    Reply

  8. Dear Ashok Saldanha, there is no mention in Quran of Jesus coming in this world to judge mankind. In fact there is no mention of any human being coming in this world to judge any one. (Judgment will only be in next life.)
    But I believe that such a thing is mentioned in the Bible NT and that is not from Jesus a.s. himself. It may be from Paul or some one else. I hope that answers your question [“VERY SAME Koran says that “Christ will come at the end of time TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD”.]
    There is no such thing in the Quran. There is a mistaken notion amongst the Christian and Muslims also that Jesus a.s. has gone into heavens alive. That is also not true. The truth is that Jesus a.s. survived the ordeal of the Cross (did not die on the Cross) but he later travelled and died in India at a good age of 120 years.
    Jesus a.s. was well respected in India where he had gone in search of the lost sheep of Israel (See BibleNT please.) and his tomb is in a good building in Sirinagar, Kashmir.
    Jesus was not divine. He was holy person and innocent to his lost breath, that means he was sinless, like all other prophets.
    That is as much as I know from the Quran and holy Bible, the Gospel.
    It is good to know that there are many Unitarian Christians who do not support Trinity. Thanks to Almighty Allah (Almighty God).
    No hard feelings, I have given my reply, as much as I knew from Quran and BibleNT. With Love for all and hatred for none…. wassalam. (Peace).

    Reply

  9. @Musalman:
    just written a new “Gospel according to Ghulam Sarwar”.

    Dear Musalman, thanks for your good remarks, I dare not write any Gospel. But I do read the Gospel, that is good news given by Jesus a.s. to his followers. And I read the Quran. In other words, I read the sacred scripture, whatever comes along and try to understand it. No more than that.
    Whatever I had written was from Gospel and the Quran. Nobody is compelled to believe me.

    Reply

  10. TO MODERATORS; I implore you please do not delete and censor my writing; let us promote the freedom of speech as Ahmadiyah are struggling till now.
    .
    @ @ Ashok Saldanha–Let me add some important verses here.
    .
    Why did God create three Holy books for people in the world ( Taurat, Injil and Al Quran ) ?
    1. Old Testament.
    2. New Testament
    3. Final Testament.
    .
    God said; The Moses'(BPUH)s followers follow / practice Torah completely, you will well come to Heaven.QS. 2;62
    .
    God said to Jesus (BPUH)s followers follow / practice Torah and Injil completely, you will well come to Heaven.QS 2:62
    .
    God said to Muhammad (BPUH)s followers believe and follow / practice all His Books (Torah,injil and Al Quran) completely, you will well come to Heaven.QS 2:62
    .
    Those who Mukmin, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who believe in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. (Surat al-Baqara, QS 2;62.
    .
    God warn Muhammad’s (BPUH) followers do not follow some of God’s laws, and reject the rest, will be punish severely;
    .
    Do you, then, believe in some parts of the Book, and disbelieve in others? So, what can be the punishment of those among you who do that, except disgrace in present life? And, on the Day of Judgement, they shall be turned to the most severe punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. QS 2:(85.
    .
    God and prophet Muhammad (BPUH)said that those Muslim who practice the Jesus (BPUH)teaching will filled his heart with compassion,love,Mercy and light. . QS.57;27.QS 5; (46).
    .
    I urge Muslim Ahmadiyah specially ,and all Muslim around the world generally to consider to believe and practice the Bible,God’s Book.
    .
    Do not be afraid and do not let extremist Muslim to threaten your life, there is no thing wrong to believe and practice God’s laws completely, you will get a lot of benefits of it, rather than believe only without practicing it. As well as Christian to believe in God’s book, namely Al Quran, you will get a lot benefits of it.
    .
    Let me tell you all.
    Torah is a book of Tauhid.
    Zabur is a book of Wisdom
    Injil is a book of Love.
    Al quran is a book of Justice (Judgement).
    .
    Three book are united will be wonderful, One Islamic teaching from God.
    .
    May Allah guide all my brothers to the right path.Amen
    .
    For You from My Heart.
    All those who read shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; O Allah, be my witness, that I have conveyed your message to your people.
    With all my love

    Reply

  11. Ghulam Sarwar, I wonder what the Jesus of the Koran meant by “I will cause thee to die, and I will raise thee to me, and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thy followers above the unbelievers till the resurrection Day,” ONLY the Christ could give His followers these high honors and assurances concerning the day of Resurrection
    Further, Sahih Al-Bukhari in Hadith 3.656 Narrated by Abu Huraira “Mohammed said “The Hour WILL NOT BE ESTABLISHED until Jesus son of Mary will come down as the JUST Judge……abolish Jizya”.
    Now please dont say THIS IS NOT AUTHENTIC HADITH because this denial is usual among muslims so I add that AL TASRIH FI MA TAWATARA FI NUZUL AL MASIH by Hadith scholar Mohd Anwar Shah Kashmiri says that “Hadith about Jesus’ second coming ARE ALL RELIABLE” & he quotes 75 hadith & 25 works of Mohammed’s companions
    Also Bukhari confirmed ONLY THE CHRIST will be the Judge who will come to this world to judge the living and the dead; saying: “The Last Hour will not come until the Son of Mary come down as the just Judge.”

    As for your comment that “There is a mistaken notion amongst the Christian and Muslims also that Jesus a.s. has gone into heavens alive”, I suggest that let this “mistake” flourish & YOU DO NOT TRY AND CHANGE IT.

    Christ WAS THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD, but please do not say Mohammed was sinless when Mohammed himself said he was a sinner.

    Reply

  12. Dear Ashok Saldanha, you are wondering, I would say you are wandering. Let me explain to you as follows, as per your post, parawise:
    YOU: I wonder what the Jesus of the Koran meant by “I will cause thee to die, and I will raise thee to me, and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thy followers above the unbelievers till the resurrection Day,”
    [These words are from God addressed to Jesus when he was praying in garden of Gethsemane before his arrest. An angel appeared to him and gave him the message that his prayer was accepted and that he will not die on the cross but he will die a normal peaceful respectable death (on bed).. There were four promises made to Jesus by God as presented by you above:
    1. That he will die a normal death and not on the cross and will not be killed anyhow.
    2. That God will raise Jesus close to Himself in ranks. (That will be his soul which will be raised high in ranks and not the body. The body will remain on earth as it is the case of every one. Body remains and soul departs to higher or lower level.)
    3. Some people will try to demonize Jesus and will defame Jesus. God promised him that He will wash away all blames that will be put on Jesus name. (That is by the agency of a high level prophet, Muhammad, coming after Jesus who will do that good work.)
    4. God will make the true followers of Jesus to prevail upon his enemies till the day of judgment. (That means whoever will love Jesus will be more powerful and will rule over the enemies and opponents of Jesus.)

    YOU: ONLY the Christ could give His followers these high honors and assurances concerning the day of Resurrection.
    [Please note that these words above are not from Jesus to Jesus. But they are from God to Jesus. I can see that all the promises made with Jesus, all four promises, have been fulfilled. Please remember that the first promise mentioned in the Quran is for his peaceful death. The promise of raising him in ranks is after his death.]

    YOU: Further, Sahih Al-Bukhari in Hadith 3.656 Narrated by Abu Huraira “Mohammed said “The Hour WILL NOT BE ESTABLISHED until Jesus son of Mary will come down as the JUST Judge……abolish Jizya”.
    Now please dont say THIS IS NOT AUTHENTIC HADITH because this denial is usual among muslims so I add that AL TASRIH FI MA TAWATARA FI NUZUL AL MASIH by Hadith scholar Mohd Anwar Shah Kashmiri says that “Hadith about Jesus’ second coming ARE ALL RELIABLE” & he quotes 75 hadith & 25 works of Mohammed’s companions
    Also Bukhari confirmed ONLY THE CHRIST will be the Judge who will come to this world to judge the living and the dead; saying: “The Last Hour will not come until the Son of Mary come down as the just Judge.”
    [All the hadith mentioned are reliable. I give you the most authentic hadith on this subject. It is mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim, both books. It is as follows:
    The prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. told his companions: “By the one in whose hand is my life, surely Jesus son of Mary will descend (arrive) among YOU, as just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine and end JIZYAH.”
    This is news from the prophet, by an oath of Allah. He is speaking to his followers and giving them definite news about the coming of Jesus son of Mary, that is second coming of Jesus a.s.
    The just judge means he will decide the conflicting matters of people with justice. He will give judgment on religious conflicts with justice. It does not mean he will judge people for their good and bad deeds and will reward or punish people. That judgment will not be in this world. That Judgment will be in the next world and will be done by the God Almighty only.
    Jesus will tell all the truth about the cross and whether he lived on the cross or died there, whether he was winner over the cross or the cross was able to crush him…
    Jesus will abolish all religious wars and will end safety money (taxes).]
    YOU: As for your comment that “There is a mistaken notion amongst the Christian and Muslims also that Jesus a.s. has gone into heavens alive”, I suggest that let this “mistake” flourish & YOU DO NOT TRY AND CHANGE IT.
    [I know that Muslims, like the Christians, believe that Jesus did not die at all and he went up to heavens alive. That is not a correct and good belief. It is not proved by the Bible NT, the Quran or Hadith. Just saying that Jesus will descend and will come again is not enough to prove that he is alive. There is news of Elias coming in this world before Jesus. But he never came himself. In his place came John the Baptist…. These are important considerations which cannot be denied.]
    YOU: Christ WAS THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD, but please do not say Mohammed was sinless when Mohammed himself said he was a sinner.

    [I do not mind you calling Jesus the sinless lamb. I like to call him a good shepherd, which he claimed to be. We love Jesus and his mother, very much.]

    Reply

    • Ghulam Sarwar,
      I can see from your replies that you are not willing to accept the hadiths or the hidden inferences in the Koran about the Christ, so all that I can say is “Now really Ghulam!”
      Do let me know what would you believe? Written narratives by people WHO WERE WITNESSES or something written 650 years after the fact by a person who is the only witness to what he wrote.
      You said you did not mind me calling Jesus “the sinless lamb”, but what about Mohammed?

      Reply

  13. @ Ashok Saldanha.
    ====You said you did not mind me calling Jesus “the sinless lamb”, but what about Mohammed?===
    .
    Allow me to join this discussion.
    .
    Based on Al Quran; All human being have sins, included all prophets from Adam to Muhammad (saw), except Jesus. Jesus was a Holy as well Allah and Angles.
    .
    But even all prophets had sins, Allah already forgiven their sins before their death.They went to Heaven directly and live beside Allah and Jesus too. So all prophets are still live in Heaven.
    .
    Prophet Adam made sins because he refused God’s commandment…Allah sent him down on earth from Heaven as punishment.

    Also prophet Muhammad (saw) made some mistakes. He insulted a poor man came to see him. But Allah forgiven him.
    .
    All love

    Reply

    • alatif, as per your post you agree that “Based on Al Quran; All human being have sins, included all prophets from Adam to Muhammad (saw), except Jesus. Jesus was a Holy as well Allah and angels.”
      You forget that Angels sinned my friend. Remember Lucifer and the other fallen angels.
      God is perfect and sinless my friend & SO WAS JESUS. Ask the Koran.

      Reply

  14. alatic, further would love to know from you what you think of “Would you believe? Written narratives by people WHO WERE WITNESSES or something written 650 years after the fact by a person who is the only witness to what he wrote.”

    Reply

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