Epigraph:
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away. (Al Quran 5:75)
Source: Bizpac Review
Billboards appearing in several Ohio locations declaring “Jesus is Muslim” are stirring controversy.
Christian groups held a prayer vigil and rally opposing the message near one of the billboards in Columbus Saturday, according to The Christian Post.
“Although we support the Islamic community’s right to free speech, as well as their right to post messages on billboards, we do not support the hijacking of the name of Jesus Christ in their attempt to lure uninformed Christians into their religion,” head of the Christian ministry Pass the Salt, Dave Daubenmire, said in a statement issued through Christian Newswire prior to the rally.
“Jesus isn’t Muslim,” the Rev. Bill Dunfee, pastor of New Beginnings Ministries told The Columbus Dispatch. “To insinuate that he is, is a lie, an absurdity. Our motive is just simply to defend the church and promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
The billboards are sponsored by Columbus-based group, “Ask a Muslim,” who are committed to educating people about Islam.
“We believe that clearing up the many misconceptions about Islam will make this world a better place,” the group’s website says. “A place with less violence and hatred, filled with mutual respect and understanding.”
Additional Reading
How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee
I am a Jew, a Catholic, a Christian and a Muslim; I am Zia H Shah
Categories: Abrahamic faiths, Americas, CHRISTIANITY, Christianity, Islam, Monotheism, Quran, Religion
Jesus, may peace be on him, is a Muslim, because that is how he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, to God the Father, by prostrating to the ground.
Jesus is a Muslim as just like them he considered himself to be a prophet of God and a Jewish prophet of God to be more precise.
Jesus is a Muslim, because just like them he cannot understand Trinity and believes in one God, Creator of the heavens and the earth, God the Father.
Understanding the Nature of Jesus is Always a Heresy
Bismilahirahmanirrahiim
Based on Al Quran;
1.Jesus, Moses, Ibrahiim all of them are Muslim or Islam.
2.The book of Taurat, zabur, injil and Al Quran are Islmic teaching came from the same God.
3.Those who love Prophet Muhammad (saw) should also love all prophet above. do not discriminate among them
4. Those who believe Muhammad (saw)should believe also others prophet and their teaching too
5. by believing God’s books, Muslim have to practicing all Gods laws.
6. Injil came down to Jesus do not to destroy previous God’s books but to fulfill it. also the same as Al Quran, Al Quran do Not to destroy the previous book of God (Bible), but to fulfill it.
7. Those who follows the Jesus teaching (Injil) God will fill his heart with love,compassion,mercy, guidance and light.
Muhammad’s followers must practicing Jesus teaching (injil)to be more perfect.
8. Those who do not practicing Jesus teaching ( Bible ) his heart filled with hate toward others, hate stir up trouble, conflict, and then murder.
9. God created His books for His people on earth, God also will guard all His Books from forgery for ever.
10.Those who accuse God;s book have been altered by human,or contains Satan’s verses, God will condemn them.
Herewith, I strongly encourage Muslim consider reading Bible as well as Christian read Al Quran.
As Rasulullah(saw) believed and practiced some of Jesus teaching and loved all prophets.QS 3;3.
Jesus came to the earth NOT to destroy Taurat, but to fulfill it.
Muhammad (saw) came to the earth NOT to destroy Taurat and Injil, but to fulfill it. Taurat, Zabur, Injil and Al Quran are Islamic book from Allah.
NOTE;
There are some contrary of some verses of God between Bible and Al Quran, do not try to accuse other book is not pure anymore, but let we learn more and respect one each other.
We know that God’s book was sent down thousands years ago, today we live in 21st Century with science and technology.
May God guide us all to the truth of Islamic teaching. Ameen
All love
This type of statement is hurtful to our christian brothers and cannot advance peace and tolerance in this society.
Without commenting on definition of a Muslim and if I have the right to tell someone what his religion should be, I will urge my Muslim brothers to PLEASE take down this billboard immediately.
Remember Sulah Hudaibiyah!
“The conditions of ‘Truce of Hudaibiyah’ were apparently one-sided and seemed even humiliating for the Muslims. But in fact this paved the way for final victory over Mecca” – alislam.org
Love for all, hatred for none
@ Muhammad Ahmad
This type of statement is hurtful to our christian brothers and cannot advance peace and tolerance in this society.
A true Muslim should not hurt other feeling publicly
I agree with Muhammad Ahmad.
We must give freedom of religion, but where we disagree we must give love, compassion, and forgiveness, instead of judgment and condemnation.
The best service to God is to promote cooperation and friendship between humans.
Second commandment from God;
Love each other, do not hurt other feeling publicly.
All love
And some people wonder why religion causes so much trouble in the world…
I totally agree with April 6 post of Mr. Mohammad Ahmad.. I do not think such cheap shots can serve any useful purpose and the intent hidden behind this stiring statement just does not look good.. Why hurt feelings of others,,
Nikala Chahta kaam ta’non(n) aor tishno(n) say ???
Please take down this bilboard and be decent in your ways of approaching Christians.
The billboard could be worded differently. One suggestion: ISLAMIC TEACHINGS OF JESUS.
To Christian brothers:Remember freedom of speech & Satan Rushdi.
According to Pres. Thomas Jefferson, Freedom of speech is for the speech to which we do not agree.
This bill board “Jesus is a Muslim” is definitely not according to the Teachings of Islam. Any act which creates disorder in society is not acceptable in any religion.
MAV
Sweden
In Quran, Allah invites people of faith to common points like — Worshiping one God. So better we act upon God’s advice rather than our wishes and focus on commonalities, not on differences, which will serve really nothing but just agitation and anger. Sulah Hudaibia is good example where upon objection of others, “Muhammad, Son of Abdullah” was replaced with “Muhammad, Prophet of Allah”! Can the followers of Muhammad (SAW) can do the same here? I hope they can!
Before making this claim, they should define what they mean by “Muslim”.
For a start, how do you square Jesus being a Muslim with the following two verses of the Quran:
1. The Prophet Muhammad is told to say: “wa ana awwal-ul-muslimeen” — “I am the first of the Muslims” (6:163).
2. “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.” (5:3)
“This day” was a day near the end of the Prophet Muhammad’s life when Islam was chosen by God as the religion.
Plain commonsense shows Jesus can only be called “muslim” in a general sense (with a small, not capital m) because he submitted to whatever God revealed to him, NOT because he followed the structure of Islam as brought by the Prophet Muhammad.
The sense in which Jesus was “muslim”, i.e. he submitted to God, there is no Muslim on earth today who is muslim in that sense!
Reading this post, all I could think of was a doctored line of an old song: It’s only words and badly chosen words are all I have to push your heart away! The fact is in the terminology of the Quran, all those who believe in ONE GOD and do what is right submitting to the will of God are Muslims, without any restriction on time. So righteous humans who believe in God, were are and will be Muslim and Jesus was a righteous human.
Though, as a Muslim, it is my belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a righteous person who not only believed in God but also had a special link with Him and hence he could be called a Muslim, I would refrain from calling him a Muslim.
Why would I go against my beliefs to do that? Simply because Christians and Muslims have had a history of animosity and as it stands a Muslim would not like being called a Christian, nor will indeed a Christian like to be called a Muslim. In such an atmosphere spelling out what is right according to one party and totally unacceptable to another party is stirring up mischief and Quran repudiates mischief mongers in no uncertain terms.
If Jesus (pbuh) is a Muslim, according to the Quran, then according to the Quran 2:285, Muhammad (pbuh) is a follower of Jesus. So if anyone insists on using his/her right to call Jesus a Muslim then this person should also be prepared to accept Prophet Muhammad being called a Christian.
The meaning of a muslim is “Obedient” all prophets of God from Adam To Mohamed SAW were obedient. I think message is shocking to the western world. Just insert the meaning of a muslim in fine print like they all do to stay out of trouble. ( to be legal and moral )
In fact the message is shocking enough to make people THINK, SEEK and ask QUESTIONS. From marketing point, it is great message. We have to bring our actions in line with Pure Islamic teachings.
Saud khan suggestion is good to avoid trouble. Isa a.s. is indeed a Muslim but the present condition of Muslims in the world is not good. The majority Muslims have earned a very bad name for Islam and Muslims. So Christians would not like to align Jesus with a Muslim.
Otherwise, the Promised Messiah a.s. wrote:
“Main kabhi Musa kabhi Isa kabhi Ya’aqoob houn.
Neez Ibraheem houn, naslain hain mairee bay shumaar.”
Trans:
I am sometime Musa, sometime Isa and sometime Ya’aqoob. I am also Abraham, I have many roots and branches.
Same applies to the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. He said, “I am more close to (more entitled to be called) Ibne Maryam..” [ Ana aulaa bi Ibne Maryam.]
It is not good to openly hurt the feelings of fellow Christians. If meaning of Muslim was written as “Jesus is a Muslim. He is obedient and beloved of Allah.” But Christians do not like Muhammad and Allah.
The best way to pass the message would be to remove that board and at same place put a new board “Muslims love Jesus.” That would be better way. Allah knows best way.
I do agree with @ Ghulam Sarwar’s comment;
quote; The present condition of Muslims in the world is not good. The majority Muslims have earned a very bad name for Islam and Muslims.quote.
Instead of trying to convert other people to Islam by putting Ads, it will be better to clean your house from mess that caused by extremist Muslims.
As we know that the true Islam is the religion of justice for all, affection, compassion, love, peace, tolerance, liberty, equality, beauty and prosperity.
Muslims should also strive to make great progress and produce superb works of technology, science, culture, art, and aesthetics, as well as live Islam in the best way, and thus represent it to the world.
If each group of Muslim can achieve this goal, we do not need to put any kind of billboards like; Jesus Is Muslim or Muslim love Jesus, etc etc…
Prophet Muhammad (saw) is a excellent role Model for Muhammad’s followers.
1. Prophet Muhammad(saw)was a noble spirit.
2. Prophet Muhammad (saw) was a wealthy and generous. He was a successful Entrepreneur.
If each of us(as Muslim) can follow Prophet Muhammad (saw) as above, it is really cool ads.
Let us strive harder,harder to achieve our goal.
God said;
Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves . QS .13:11.
Al love.
WHO IS ISLAM?
Based on Al Quran;
Old interpretation: Often we hear from Clerics that Islam stems from Prophet Muhammad (saw). This teaching is misleading people. Muslim clerics told that Al Quran is a book for Muslim, and the previous books of Allah are not for Muslim. Therefore Muslim does not read the previous Books of Allah. Even they accuse the previous Books had been altered by human. In other words, Bible is not a pure of God’s words anymore. The same as extremist Christian accuse Al Quran is Satan’s verses. Both extremist’s accusation is not based on Al Quran and Bible, but based on hatred. The source of hatred (hate) come from evil, and evil always deceive and mislead people to wrong way.
Modren interpretation; based on Al Quran, verily Islam stems from Prophet Ibrahiim, then Prophet Moses, Daud and Jesus. Allah commanded Prophet Muhammad and his followers to believe and to practice the all books of Allah. All books are Islamic teaching from Allah.
As Allah explained to Muhammad (saw) and then Prophet Muhammad explained to his followers in Al Quran as following;
1. And remember that Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: he said: “I will make thee an Imam to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (Imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”QS 2;124
2. And this was the Legacy that Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya’qub; “O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).QS 2;132
3. Verily, this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other). QS 21;92
4. Struggle for (seeking the pleasure of) Allah, a struggle that is owed to Him. He has chosen you and did not impose any hardship on you in the religion, the faith of your father Ibrahim. He (Allah) named you as Muslims earlier and also in this (Qur’an), so that the Messenger becomes a witness to you, and you become witnesses to (other) people. 16 So establish Salah, pay Zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your patron or protector . So, how excellent He is as a patron, and how excellent as a supporter! QS 22;78
Therefore, those who claim that Islam or Muslim is only the followers of prophet Muhammad (saw) is wrong and misleading people, and then hate toward Jews and Christian.
Verily, the followers Prophet Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are Islam or Muslim.
All His prophets were Muslim or Islam
All His books are God’s laws, or Islamic teaching.
Allah descends prophets Abrahaam are Muslim or Islam.
CONCLUSION’
Jews, Christian, Muslim, and Sabiin who believe in God, is Islam or Muslim.
On contrary, Jews do not want to be told as a Muslim or Islam or Christian.
Christian do not want to be told as Muslim or Islam.
To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the Right Way. QS 22:67
( It means that every religious group has their own way to worship God ).
Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Ibrahim the true in faith? For Allah did take Ibrahim for a friend.QS 4:124
We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Nuh and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaq, Ya’qub, and the Tribes, to ‘Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun, and Sulaiman, and to Daud We gave the Psalms .QS 4 : 163
Allah confirmed this to the Prophet and all the Muslims. He says: “Say ye: ‘We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God in Islam.” “.(QS.2:136)
(it means that Muhammad’s followers have to believe Allah and all Allah’s books )
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness – on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve QS 5;69
From above verses we can conclusion clearly that all Muslim, Jews, Christian, Sabiin who believe in Allah (God) are Muslim or Islam even every group has his own ceremony, how the way to worship God.
Those who accuses Jews, Christian, and Sabiin are infidel is wrong and mislead people.
I URGE all Muslim to consider to read Bible, God’s book, contains many valuable verses ( God’s laws ).
Those Muslim who do not believe and do not practice Bible, their faith is not complete.
All love
Ghulam Sarwar,
What nonsense. “Jesus is Muslim” is just a way to irritate the locals, and further you say
” the Promised Messiah a.s. wrote: (WHEN ? this gives grist to the saying that Islam has a long history of myth making)
You say:
“Main kabhi Musa kabhi Isa kabhi Ya’aqoob houn.
Neez Ibraheem houn, naslain hain mairee bay shumaar.”
Trans:
I am sometime Musa, sometime Isa and sometime Ya’aqoob. I am also Abraham, I have many roots and branches.
Same applies to the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. He said, “I am more close to (more entitled to be called) Ibne Maryam..” [ Ana aulaa bi Ibne Maryam.]
It is not good to openly hurt the feelings of fellow Christians. If meaning of Muslim was written as “Jesus is a Muslim. He is obedient and beloved of Allah.” But Christians do not like Muhammad and Allah.
The best way to pass the message would be to remove that board and at same place put a new board “Muslims love Jesus.” That would be better way. Allah knows best way.
You make sense when you say Christians do not like Muhammad and Allah – it would have been better if you had sad ” MOST of the world do not like Muhammad and Allah” because Koran (Surah 8:72-73) teaches Muslims to enter lands where it is not the dominant force and stir up trouble, so when peoples of these lands retaliate to protect their culture and way of life the muslims will cry “persecution, islamophobia racism etc.,”
This is happening right now in countries where Islam is in minority & that is fact.
[Wise. 8:72] And if they deal treacherously with thee , they have already dealt treacherously with Allah before, but He with those thee power over them. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise. [8:72]
[8:73] Truly, those who have believed and fled from nearby homes and left their valuable property and near relatives for the cause of Allah, and those who have given them shelter and help – these are supporters (guardians) of one another. But as for those who have believed but have not left their homes (have not migrated to Madinah), you are not at all responsible for their protection (or support) until they leave, they migrate. But if they seek your help in the matter of religion, then it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and yourselves there is a treaty. And Allah sees what you do. [8:73]
—————————————–
Ya Musalman, where is anything that you are accusing Islam about. There is nothing in the verses that you mentioned. You must have been misled by some one.
@ Muslim Reason.wrote;
For a start, how do you square Jesus being a Muslim with the following two verses of the Quran:
1. The Prophet Muhammad is told to say: “wa ana awwal-ul-muslimeen” — “I am the first of the Muslims” (6:163).
2. “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.” (5:3)======
I would like to challenge those who believe His books but do not practice it like @ Muslim Reason
It seem to me that Muslim Reason are following ancient Arab interpretation, where Ancient Scholar hated those who did not follow prophet Muhammad, and accused them infidel or enemy of Prophet and Allah. This is wrong and misleading people.
OLD INTERPRETATION FROM ANCIENT SCHOLARS thought that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the FIRST man to become Islam.
WHEREAS, Allah explained clearly with His verses below, that Prophet Muhammad ( saw) was not the first Islam,Islam was began from Prophet Ibrahaam.
And this was the Legacy that Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya’qub; “O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).QS 2;132.
What It means from verse (“I am the first of the Muslims” (6:163).) is among Arab people. It dose not mean that prophet Muhammad (saw ) the FIRST MUSLIM among Abrahaam’s offspring(descend).
Allah tole Prophet Muhammad (saw) all Jews, Christian and Muslim are Islam or Muslim. Even the Jews and Christian did not label with Islam or Muslim. But Allah and Muhammad said that they are all Muslim or Islam.
I would like also to explain; What does it mean with ( “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.” (5:3) )====
It seems to me that Muslim Reason are following the ancient interpretation that misleading people and hate toward Jews and Christian. This old interpretation was wrong and against Al Quran.
Let me prove it you;
Old interpretation; Often we hear from Ancient Muslim Clerics and scholars that believe the previous book just enough “believe His books, do not need to practice His laws”. This teaching from clerics and scholars misleading people. In order Muslim do not read Bible, clericts accused that Taurat, Zabur, and injil ( Bible) had altered by human, therefore, Muslim are forbidden to read and practice what Allah commanded in the previous books. Al Quran is complete, the last book from Allah.
Modern Interpretation from; based on Allah’s verses in Al Quran and Bible the meaning of beliefs is not just to say” I believe His books” but have to practice what Allah said in His Book. This is the true believer. Without practicing His laws from Bible, Muslim will not get the complete teaching / lessons from Allah. That is why Allah ordered Prophet Muhammad and his followers to believe and practice.
Muslim have to believe and to practice some of God’s laws in Bible that not against the last Testament, the last rule of God.
Allah said that Prophet Muhammad’s followers must believe, and practice The old Testament, The New Testament and The Final testament , because all books are Islamic teaching from Allah.
Prophet Jesus came on earth did not to destroy The Old testament but to complete it. Prophet Muhammad (saw) came on earth not to destroy The old Testament and The New testament but to complete it.
Allah said to Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a example;
The desert Arabs, say “We believe.” Say “Ye have no faith; but ye (only) say `We have submitted our wills to Allah.’ for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught oft your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.” (14) Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and have never since doubted but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah: Such are the sincere ones. QS 49:14
( Believe all God’s books, but do not practice the God’s law, they do not believe God and Prophets yet. )
Allah commanded prophet Muhammad(saw) several times to believe all His Books as following;
The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers – We make no distinction between any of His messengers – and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.QS 2; (285)
Say ye: “We believe, in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam).” QS 2 :136.
O ye who believe! Believe —-in Allah— and his Messenger, —and the scripture which He hath sent to —His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). And who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. QS 4: 136.
Alif Lam Mim (1) Allah! There is no Allah but He―the Living, the Self-Subsisting Eternal. (2) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) (3) Before this as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Furqan (of judgment between right and wrong) QS 3:1- 3.
Those who believe all Allah’s books but do not practice it, they do not get Allah’s laws completely.
Those who follows Allah’s laws some of them, and refuse the rest, Allah will bring on them disgrace in this world, punishment on Hereafter.
Do you, then, believe in some parts of the Book, and disbelieve in others? So, what can be the punishment of those among you who do that, except disgrace in present life? And, on the Day of Judgement, they shall be turned to the most severe punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. QS 2;(85).
So I URGE all Muslim Ahmadiyah and others to consider to read and to practice what Allah’s commanded in Bible.
I URGE you to read the book of Wisdom or the book of Zabur and Injil. You can not find in Al Quran the coolest verses from Allah was written in Bible.
For example;
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT.
The Lord—and the Lord alone—is God, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength
THE SECOND COMMANDMENT.
Love your neighbor as you love yourself Or love all people regardless his beliefs, race and gender.
May Allah guide all Muslim to the truth of Islamic teaching, Ameen
All love
WHO IS ISLAM?
Surely, those who say, “Our Lord is Allah” and then stay firm, they will have no fear, nor shall they grieve. (13) Those are the people of Paradise, who will live there for ever as a reward for what they used to do. QS 46:13-14
Those who say; Laa illa hailahllah, Muhammada Rasulullah ” is Islam or Muslim.
Those who say above is followers of Muhammad, they are Islam.
Also those who say; Our Lord is Allah is Islam too but they are not the followers of Muhammad (saw).
like Allah said;
Struggle for (seeking the pleasure of) Allah, a struggle that is owed to Him. He has chosen you and did not impose any hardship on you in the religion, the faith of your father Ibrahim. He (Allah) named you as Muslims earlier and also in this (Qur’an), so that the Messenger becomes a witness to you, and you become witnesses to (other) people. 16 So establish Salah, pay Zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your patron or protector . So, how excellent He is as a patron, and how excellent as a supporter! QS 22;78
May these verses above will bring you more understanding about “WHO IS ISLAM”
The followers of Moses (Taurat) are Islam
The followers of Jesus (Taurat plus Injil ) are Islam
the followers of Muhammad (al Quran plus Injil,plus Taurat ) are Islam.
The followers of Muhammad (saw) have a complete laws than the previous followers.
Al Quran is the last laws of Allah that fulfilled the previous laws. The laws of Allah is complete now. no more laws from Allah. No more prophet after prophet Muhammad (saw).
But I believe there prophets will come, but they do not bring new laws any more.
After 1400 years the death of prophet Muhammad, we see now the followers of all prophets is a conflict, religious war, and human tragedy in the world. Million innocent people suffering and died.
Or maybe the world do not need a prophet anymore, the world is on the edge of end now.
Only Allah is All Knower.
All love
Zia Shah,
The age old adage says that before one comments on a topic, he should be familiar with it.
When you say that Jesus is a muslim because he prostrated in the Garden of Gethsemane, you tend to forget the muhammadan way of praying. No muhammadan prostrates. All he/she does is to knock his/her forehead on the ground. He/she does not go by the dictionary meaning of the word which says “LYING STRETCHED OUT ON THE GROUND WITH ONE’S FACE DOWNWARDS”.
If prostration is the required way of worshiping your god, then muhammadans are off the mark by a wide margin.
You are either ignorant of or chose to neglect the many instances when Jesus prayed standing or sitting down.
It was Jesus Himself Who taught the Holy Trinity. While giving the Great Commission, He told the disciples to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. John in his first epistle says that these three bear record in heaven and are ONE(1st John 5:7, King James).
The billboard in question may be provocative. But I see something different in it. By using the present tense ‘IS’, the promoters are acknowledging the fact that Jesus is still alive. Only God can be alive for more than two thousand years. All mortals given birth to two hundred years ago,are long since dead.
That billboard unequivocally proclaims that JESUS IS GOD. QED.
Understanding the Nature of Jesus is Always a Heresy
Namelee, That came straight from the heart and into the “in your face” attitude that Muslims adopt to make a point.
Jesus’s tomb IS EMPTY because HE LIVES and there is many a Mohammedan who has quoted chapter & verse from the Koran to say otherwise and has been proved wrong.
Those 65 reasons to “prove” Jesus did not die on the cross were silly to say the least, because not one of them said anything about how frightened men broke into a tomb guarded by Rome’s finest (who would have been killed for dereliction of duty) took away a battered and bruised body through a city buzzing with life in honor of the Passover feast.
Islam has this cute way of creating myths and fairy tales to “prove” Christ was a fraud & not God.
Musalmaan Masala,
We are totally on the same page. Thanks.
@ musalmaan masala
Good Masala – but its just a claim and you add more claims to your arguments like Jesus is still alive or he is God.
The proof for your claims actually lies on you not on others.
If some one missing for 14 fourteen years (less or more) all courts of law declare him Dead. If one says the missing one is still alive he will have to prove it.
Like wise you will have to prove it where Jesus is since 2000 yrs.
Some other points one may ask you to prove, would be…like:
1- Who saw him flying in the air – were there any non Christian witnesses as well – as I know it is written that Cloud Covered him, when he went to the top of the Mount. Did he really need to go onto a Hill or Mount to go to skies?
2- Next point may be asked – Who witnessed him sitting on the Right Hand of God? Is it His own hand or Father’s Hand or Holy Spirits Hand?
3- If he went to skies – which direction, and how fast – As he started his journey only 2000 years ago – may be you can still see him travelling in the space.
4- What is he doing there? Is he enjoying himself with the bad conditions of people on earth?
5- According to the Scriptures (if we take them as it) Alias and Idrees are also alive and are living somewhere in the heavens – so whats new if Jesus is also sitting there?
6- Jesus is actually missing according to your understanding – unless you really prove otherwise.
7- Jesus never preached himself as God, but The awaited Massiah. And Jesus’ immediate companions or people around him never took him as Deity – nor they worshipped him as God – in fact one of his deciples sold him for 30 Dirhams and an other cursed him multiple times. They took him just a man and doubted about his truth.
8- His own mother who knew him and his status even before his birth, never worshipped him.
Do you claim that you know Jesus more than his own mother or closest companions?
I hope not so – if not so then please take Jesus as he claimed to be – that will surely make him happier with you, more than ever before. Thanks
Nadi,
Everything the Holy Bible says about the Lord Jesus is based on irrefutable evidence by eye witnesses
…
Namelee:
You wrote: “Nadi,
Everything the Holy Bible says about the Lord Jesus is based on irrefutable evidence by eye witnesses”
I asked you for proofs for yours or Musalaman Masala’s earlier claims. You added one more Claim. Can you read my earlier post again? I asked for the very eye witnesses or the common sense behind your claims. You added one more claim. It does not go together. I wonder, Your eye witnesses were never witnessed by the close Companions of Jesus (AS).
Namelee the Gospels are not written by eye witnesses.
It takes a Christian apologist like yourself to call the stories from 2000 years ago as irrefutable evidence.
Here is the real story:
The Pope Benedict’s account of resurrection and the hearsay rule!
The Forged Bible — By Prof. Bart Ehrman
Zia Shah,
There are stories in the quran which were copied from various sources dating back to over 5,000 years which the likes of you believe without question. The same also applies to secular history some of which are based on the records of the individual and possibly another flimsy source. An example is Julius Caesar’s foray in Britain which is based on his account and a passing mention in Cicero’s voluminous work. You will not question those but out of bigotry will question what the New Testament says.
St Paul, in Galatians 2:1-2 says “I WENT IN RESPONSE TO A REVELATION AND SET BEFORE THEM THE GOSPEL THAT I PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES”.
He was a contemporary of the Lord’s and worked closely with the Apostles some of who wrote the Gospels based on eyewitness accounts. Why did Paul refer to the Gospel if they did not exist at his time?
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Namelee. I think we did point out our view: As all prophets got their messages from the same Creator of us all there are bound to be similarities. It does not mean that ‘stories are copied’.
We believe the incidents described in the Holy Quran, as it was a verbal revelation to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, was being written as revealed and put together in a book form two years after his demise.
The New Testament, with its 27 books, was not put together, in a book form until the fourth century.
The New Testament: How was it compiled?
Misquoting Jesus
Namelee:
Yes the matter is clear now – its upto you if you like to be Pulian or Christian. Can you quote something to support you from Palestine rather than from Outside Palestine. From closest deciples or especially from his mother, father or brothers rathen than from outsiders?
Please do not delete my respond to all reders even you do not like my respond, Love and respect the different idea, thought and interpretation. This is the core of Islamic teaching. May Allah bless us all, Ameen.
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To all Muslim and Christian in this forum. We love this forum because we use God’s words instead of evil words..it is very cool, so we can sharing our observation and experiences.May Allah will guide us all with the true teaching of God.Amen.
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Allah already given us warning as followings;
1. do not insult other religion, or beliefs.
Like; extremist non Islam accused Al Quran is Satanic verses. Extremist Muslim also accused Bible already altered by human. Both extremist accuse NOT based God’s words, but human’s words.
So if we follow Human’s words,wiil be misguided.
But if we follows God’s words from His Books, will be save.
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1.O you believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former. Nor let some women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former. Nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. QS 49;11
2.”And insult not those whom they worship besides God, lest they insult God wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do QS 6;108
Allah also have guarantee the purity of His all Books as following;
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1. It is) in Books (Taurat, Zabur, Injil, and Quran) held (greatly) in honour. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, (Written) by the hands of scribes― Honourable and Pious and Just. QS.80; 7-16
2. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, QS 5;48.
Example; If you publish your book and distribute your books to people as many as possible, no one can falsify your book any more. If there is any one want to falsify you book, it is easy to recognize the fake book by comparing with original that everyone already has your book.
3. There are some unknown meaning of verse, only God know it.
Extremist Muslim use this verses to accuse others is wrong. God already warned His people do not slander or discord others.
He is the One who has revealed to you the Book (the Qur’an). Out of it there are verses that are Muhkamat (of established meaning), which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others are Mutashabihat (whose definite meanings are unknown). Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after such part of it as is mutashabih, seeking (to create) discord, and searching for its interpretation (that meets their desires), while no one knows its interpretation except Allah; QS 3;7
May all God’s verses above can convince all readers in this forum, Amen
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With all my love
Nadi,
You are talking absolute nonsense.
What is now clear? What do you mean by Puline? What am I to quote from Palestine instead of outside Palestine? And what is expected from whose close disciples,father, mother , brothers and sisters?
I will respond appropriately when you make sense of your comment.
Zia,
You “believe” that the ‘revelation’ was recorded as Muhammad received it. There is no evidence to show that there was any revelation. Just the words of Muhammad and you ‘believe’.
The Gospels were in existence before the 4th century. The Councils that met only confirmed what had been in use by the early Church fathers who got them directly from the Apostles. Papias was one of the early writers about the Gospels and he wrote between 110 and 130 AD.
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NON-MUSLIM WRITERS ABOUT THE HOLY QURAN
Compilation of the Holy Quran into a text
I agree that the last of the four canonical Gospels to be written was around 100 CE. But, there were scores of other Gospels, a few have survived.
But, which 27 books will make into the New Testament did not happen until much later.
Marcion was to make the first collection, but, unfortunately for him, he was not best in politicking and was declared a heretic.
Namelee,
I was of the opinion that you should rely more on Local witnesses from within Palestine or Nazireth rather than from outside like from Greece, Rome or London.
Instead of quoting from Paul, You should quote from Jesus (AS) or may be from his Closest disciples or relatives, like his Brothers, Father or best from his own Mother Marry who knew him more than anyone else – yet she never took him as diety – nor any locals see him claiming of being GOD but sone of Man, or the awaited Massiah!
YOu can aslo try to quote from the first Pope or the Successor of Jesus (AS)! I hope you got the point now. Thanks!
It is all misguidance in BibleNT which is from Paul. Jesus a.s. was a true Jew following the law of Moses a.s. Jesus a.s. did not do even a smallest deviation from the law. If he had done that, the people would have caught him and abused him. Jesus a.s. was very careful and true follower of Moses a.s..
Even when Jesus a.s. did not do anything bad, still the elders of the Jews rejected him and planned against him. That was the bad work of that time Jewry and that was not so bad compared with what the church is doing to Jesus a.s. now.
The church has made Jesus into a god against the explicit teaching of the law of Moses a.s.
They have denounced the law of Moses a.s. as a curse. The church has played havoc with the life and true teachings of Jesus a.s. care of Paul.
There is more of Paul in the bibleNT than there is of any true disciple of JESUS a.s. The teachings of Jesus a.s. have been high jacked by Paul. But church is very happy with Paul who reversed all teachings and practice of Jesus a.s. Muslims will permit the Christians to follow Paul but will never agree to the teachings (and words) of Paul.
Ghulam Sarwar wrote:
“..But church is very happy with Paul who reversed all teachings and practice of Jesus a.s. Muslims will permit the Christians to follow Paul but will never agree to the teachings (and words) of Paul.”
Yes that’s true – Church or Christians distant themselves from Judaic Laws and Principles – looks like because they were apparently tough for them, secondly they were mainly owned from the rival quarters. But they forgot that who was the sender and promoters of those Laws.
Apart from that as a side not — I wud like to share the idea that Ahmadies are Modern Christians, and going through same phase of History. I pray that they don’t do the same while being under the influence of the West and of the Rivalry of the Main stream Muslims. Amin!
Zia,
That you refer to only four canonical Gospels means that the others were not accepted as being accurate and authoritative. They were written by doubtful authors who lived several centuries after the apostles who gave eyewitness accounts. Such ‘gospels’ had to be excluded.
From the earliest days of the Church, the Church held on to a canon which, minus minor differences, is the same as the 27 books of the New Testament. The differences do not have any impact on doctrine.
The 4th century Councils did not set the canon. They merely confirmed what had already existed.
Nothing accepted was outside the existing practice of the Church as handed down by the Apostles. Polycarp,who was ordained the first Bishop of Smyrna by the Apostle John, is among the early Church fathers to confirm the tradition of the Church as he was taught. There was no politicking in what was rejected.
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How the bible was compiled? See:
The Council of Nicaea and the Bible
There seem to be a number of legends about the First Council of Nicaea (325AD) in circulation on the internet, presented as fact. Some people seem to think that the council, which was the first council of all the Bishops of the Christian Church, either invented the New Testament, or edited it to remove references to reincarnation (or whatever) or burned large numbers of heretical works, or whatever. These are in error. This page documents the problem and provides links to all the ancient source material in order to allow everyone to check the truth for themselves.
The Early
Church Fathers
CDROM
Buy New: $29
Please support this site.
Here’s my first example, from usenet:
> In tracing the origin of the Bible, one is led to AD 325, when
> Constantine the Great called the First Council of Nicaea, composed of
> 300 religious leaders. Three centuries after Jesus lived, this council
> was given the task of separating divinely inspired writings from those
> of questionable origin.
> The actual compilation of the Bible was an incredibly complicated
> project that involved churchmen of many varying beliefs, in an
> atmosphere of dissension, jealousy, intolerance, persecution and
> bigotry.
> At this time, the question of the divinity of Jesus had split the
> church into two factions. Constantine offered to make the little-known
> Christian sect the official state religion if the Christians would
> settle their differences. Apparently, he didn’t particularly care what
> they believed in as long as they agreed upon a belief. By compiling a
> book of sacred writings, Constantine thought that the book would give
> authority to the new church.
Here’s a second version of the same idea:
> The references in the Christian religion of reincarnation, I am told,
> were removed by the Council of Nicea. (See Note A)
Here’s a third version of this idea:
> Also, we do know that there were many books of supposed prophets
> floating around up until 312 CE when the Council of Nicea decided
> which books were scripture and which ones were burned. Thanks to
> the notorious habit of early Christian leaders of destroying
> books/scrolls, we may never know what doctrine existed before the
> Council of Nicea.
And another even more extreme example:
Author: Laulak Siddique
Date: 2000/12/06
Forum: alt.religion.islam
In article ,
“Laulak Siddique” wrote:
> Christianity consisted of many sects. By converting Constantine
> (The Great) the Paul heresy triumphed as the concept of trinity and the ending of the
> Mosaic law (which made swine flesh permissible) brought this version of
> Christianity very close to the Hellenic paganism that was practiced in Rome
> and Greece. At Nicea Constantine had 300 versions of the Bible burnt, thus
> legitimising and patronizing only the Paulic heresy.
And another (I’m not making any of these up):
Subject: Re: Snipper continues trying to shift the burden of proof to the atheists
From: “St. Clarence”
Date: 2001/01/07
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,alt.christnet.atheism,alt.christnet.calvinist …
>Actually, legend has it that at the Council of Nicea, Constantine was
>unsure of what else to include as a holy scripture (which later the batch
>became the Bible). He threw the batch that he was to choose from onto a
>table. Those that remained on the table were in, those that fell off were
>out.
(See Note B)
The most
common source
of the misinformation
at the moment is the Da Vinci code:
A new version of the story (June 2001), which also includes a very confused version of the ‘Secret Mark’ theory of Morton Smith (not 480, obviously):
Dave Crisp wrote in message news:…
> There are one or two places where there is evidence of which is ‘right’,
> the most famous example perhaps being the account of the raising of Lazarus
> which was removed from Mark on the instructions of the Council of Nicea as
> it hat overtones of a ‘mystery cult’.
[source 1=”-” 2=”answer:” language=”queried”][/source]
> If you could give me a couple of days, I could probably dig out the entire
> text, which was contained in a letter sent in 480 by the Bishop of
> Alexandria to one of his underlings; who was involved it trying to stamp
> out a group of ‘Heretics’ who were still using the original version.
And another:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish, (etc)
Date: 1996/05/08
> The Roman Catholic Church created the canon of Christian
> scripture at the Council of Nicea, at the same time that they determined
> the doctrine of Trinity (through the assasination of a few of the voting
> bishops, by one vote). (See Note D)
And the legend reappears in the Da Vinci Code.
These all sound individually quite confident and authoritative. But how do we find out if they are true? The answer must be to assemble all the primary data; any documents issued by the council, and any ancient accounts of its proceedings.
Documents Issued by the Council
The 318 bishops issued a creed (Symbolum), 20 canons, and a letter to the church of Alexandria. An English translation of these is available from http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm
Ancient Accounts of the Council
I admit that I was a little stumped as to what these might be. However I searched the internet. I also went through Quasten’s Patrology looking for any references, and drew up a table of references from that.
From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm :
The adhesion [to the creed] was general and enthusiastic. All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula, convince that it contained the ancient faith of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. Arius and his writings were also branded with anathema, his books were cast into the fire, and he was exiled to Illyria.
But the accounts of Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomen, Theodoret, and Rufinus may be considered as very important sources of historical information, as well as some data preserved by St. Athanasius, and a history of the Council of Nicaea written in Greek in the fifth century by Gelasius of Cyzicus.
(Leclerq, H)
Nadi,
If your editors will stop mutilating my comments in the name of “moderation” or not posting some of them at all, there will be no need for me to keep repeating myself. Some of the issues now raised by you had been answered in an earlier post or posts which was/were ‘moderated’.
Among the witnesses from ‘Palestine’ or ‘Nazarith’, was Jude who has this to say on the Godship of Jesus:
verse 5:”FOR THERE ARE CERTAIN MEN CREPT UNAWARES, WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, UNGODLY MEN, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LASCIVIOUSNESS, AND DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD, AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”.
Verse 25:”TO THE WISE GOD OUR SAVIOUR, BE ALL GLORY AND MAJESTY, DOMINION AND POWER, BOTH NOW AND FOR EVER. AMEN”.
Christ is the Saviour or the Messiah as even the quran calls him. Jude knows that HE is and calls HIM God.
Jesus’ parents heard HIM proclaim HIMSELF as being ‘ONE WITH THE FATHER’ without refuting it even though the Jews saw the declaration as blasphemy.
No pope was ordained when Jesus was on earth. But the early Church fathers passed on what they had heard from the Apostles.
The quran says that only God creates. But it also says that Jesus created birds from clay. The quran claims that only God gives life. It also holds that Jesus gave life to the clay birds HE created.
These are confirmatory statements that Jesus is God without the slightest doubt.
Namelee:
My friend – popehood did not come out of no where – there must be successor after Jesus. As per some studies one of his brothers succeeded him.
Anyways you must be referring to Judas of James – not Judas of Ascariot – but never the less – If he was Identified as GOD then there must be common practice of worshipping him – which we see no where. One remote quote does not make a basis of whole worship.
To use quotes like – ” I am with God or GOD is with me” – does not make one GOD – these quotes are found in every religion and no wonder, for these quotes many religions take their Prophets as Deities – Christianity is not an exception.
– I wonder not all the apostles knew if he was GOD, not atleast his two disciples who betrayed him.
– Knowing him as God – his mother or other did not worship him – wont it be Heretic? What kid of apostles wud they be?
– Why he had to be a GOD when they were expecting a Massiah or a Savior? Won’t Jews be right then to reject a claimant of GOD.
– Quran does say that Jesus (PBUH) made birds out of clay (I believe its all about spiritual birds – otherwise these miracles neither benefited people around him nor wud Bible have missed these facts), And Quran Also says same kind of things about Muhammad (PBUH), like… “…go to him (Muhammad (PBUH) so that he may give you life” and like…It was not you who threw the pebbles , It was GOD who did that.
So these examples are found in every religion yet Prophets are Sons of Man and are made of flesh and blood. They need sleep, food and other humanly things. Thanks.
ps: I don’t moderate here nor I know who moderate even my posts.
Rafiq,
Thanks for acknowledging that the stories on how the Bible was compiled are nothing but myths. Since a myth is a widely held but false believe, these ones fall into that category. They require no attention.
But with people allowing themselves to be deceived by Dan Brown’s novel, The Da Vinci Code, the record has to be set straight. The New Testament of today was deemed authentic more than 200 years before the Council of Nicaea. Dr. Edwin Lutzer in his book, ‘The Da Vinci Code Deception’, says “CONSTANTINE DID NOT DECIDE WHICH BOOKS WOULD BE IN THE CANON; INDEED, THE TOPIC OF THE CANON DID NOT EVEN COME UP AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA. BY THE TIME, THE EARLY CHURCH WAS READING A CANON OF BOOKS IT HAD DETERMINED WAS THE WORD OF GOD TWO HUNDRED YEARS EARLIER”.
Apostle John made references to the gnostic writers in his first epistle, designating them as antichrist.
Before Nicaea, some of the early church fathers had already branded the gnostic gospels toxic. Iraneus did that 140 years before the Council. Another Church father was Origen who similarly wrote in the 3rd century.
Had you not called the stories ‘myths’, I would have asked for the names of the Bishops “assassinated” to ensure that the opposition was rendered ineffective.
On the Bible as a whole, there are actual manuscripts going back centuries before muhammadanism which show that the Bible of today is precisely that which the Jews and Christians of ancient times alone knew as their holy Scripture.
The quran confirms the Torah and The Gospels in numerous verses and in one of those verses sees it as “GUIDANCE AND LIGHT”(sura 5:44).
Using the Da Vinci Code, which the author calls a novel, as a source or reference material is willful ignorance.