Moderator, Rabbi Tovia Singer and Prof. William Lane Craig
William Lane Craig is one of the leading Christian apologists and it is useful for the Unitarians to have his confession, which I have paraphrased a little, to keep it short: ‘If we Examine Trinity, through the lens of the Old Testament, it is not Believable!’
You can watch the video here as embedded from the Youtube:
We have also preserved the video for the posterity should it be removed from the Youtube:
Rabbi Tovia Singer makes a good point about absence of Trinity in the Old Testament and Prof. William Lane Craig has no genuine answer as to why God confused and not give the complete picture of Divinity to the Jewish prophets for 2000 years before Jesus, may peace be on him. However, William Lane Craig, an expert and an articulate debater that he is, weaves a verbose response of confusing and not defined terms, to keep those who are indoctrinated into Triune understanding bewildered! The fact of the matter is that the term Trinity is not mentioned even in the New Testament.
For 2000 years before Jesus, the Jews never thought of Trinity, as in Craig’s own words there was no reason to, going by the Old Testament. So, how can Trinity be legitimate if none of the Old Testament Prophets preached it. Mind you, the Old Testament makes 75% of the Bible and the New Testament mounts to nothing if it is not preceded by the Old Testament and that was the reason, why the Christian Fathers included it in the canon of the Bible.
The Unitarians build their case on what is central and fundamental and explain away allegoric and peripheral in light of that and the Trinitarians do the exact opposite and no wonder their teachings give rise to countless contradictions and absurdities, some of which are highlighted in the articles linked below. One I would mention here, a literal son, who is co-eternal with his Father, as the Trinitarians will have us believe, is logically and philosophically, simply silly. The Father has to at some point in time father the literal son and predate him, otherwise the son is literally not a son! Additionally, even if Jesus was magically eternal before, when he died for three days and three nights by the Trinitarian, childish counting, he is not eternal anymore. The understanding of what the debaters are doing is certainly in light of a profound verse of the Holy Quran, from Sura Aal-e-Imran, as the Rabbi focuses on central and fundamental and William Lane Craig, like any other Trinitarian, obsesses over what is ‘susceptible of different interpretations.’ The Quran says:
He (Allah) it is Who has sent down to thee (Muhammad) the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. (Al Quran 3:8)
The Trinitarians choose to obsess over Jesus and God the Father, but seldom or infrequently trouble the Holy Ghost. In their obsession about the person of Jesus of Nazareth, the Trinitarian apologists choose to read the Triune God, every time the word ‘God’ is mentioned in the Old Testament, which is hundreds of times, but, for 2000 years before Jesus, none of the Jews ever read the word in Triune terms and understood only one God, who is God the Father, in the later Trinitarian Christian understanding.
Watch a video by Prof. Bart Ehrman on How Jesus became God and he has a book on this subject also:
Additional reading
The concept of Trinity has no legs to stand on
Two natures of Jesus: another Christian mystery!
Trinity: Explained from the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible
The Holy Ghost: The mysteries of Trinity
Is God the Father the Creator, the Trinity as a whole or are there three Creators?
Modalism: A stage in the development of Trinity
Another book Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian by Anthony Buzzard (Oct 24, 2007).
Categories: Highlight, Monotheism
Even the law of nature and commonsense not support Trinity.The unity of God is logical because the person who born,eat,sleep like human-being and even He himself never claimed being a God and worshiped only God and never said worship me as God.
MNA KHAN, “Law of Nature and Common Sense”!!! How can one bind an Infinite Boundless God to Laws & Sense is beyond me?
When Christ said Before Abraham was I AM, I suppose he did not mean He was God & neither was He meaning anything when He said “I AM the Way, the Truth & the Life”, & FORGIVING SINS (which ONLY GOD can) but most important, the Jews killed Him FOR CLAIMING HE WAS GOD (Please refer the NT)
Christ did not have to go around shouting that He was God. He had come for a specific purpose in Salavation History to show man the way to God. And as God there was no better person to do that, because a fallible man cannot show anyone the way to God & CHRIST WAS PERFECT & SINLESS – please refer the koran (and ONLY God is PERFECT & SINLESS)
When man tries to apply Laws of Nature (Created by God) and Common Sense (Free will to believe in the Trinity or not) then man loses.
Ashok Saldanha, please give us a break. A man cannot be God at the same time, just like an apple cannot be a rock and an monkey at the same time.
@Ashok
Jesus (Peace be upon him) said “Before Abraham was I am”, this does not prove that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was divine.
If Jesus (pbuh) existed before Abraham that does not make him God in anyway because even angels existed before Abraham. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? No ! Jesus (pbuh) was with God before Abraham (pbuh) , but in what form? Was he like a handsome young man moving around and then God reduced him to a small baby and put him in his mother’s womb?No! It means in the knowledge of God we all were there. Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his birth. The Bible says
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
Moreover, whenever a Prophet of Allah comes he is the truth, the way, and the life because through him people can find God and reach spiritual heights while rejecting him can earn man punishment from God.
Furthermore, the Jews tried to kill Jesus (PBUH) because they wanted to prove that he was accursed by God. In the Old Testament it says anyone who dies a death by being hung (i.e. on a cross) is accursed by God.
@Ashok: Jesus (Peace be upon him) said “Before Abraham was I am”,
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Ashok, that is a meaningless sentence. Please make it more meaningful as follows:
Jesus (Peace be upon him) said “Abraham was before, I am here now.” That is what Jesus a.s. is saying that you talk about Abraham. That is right. “Abraham was before. I am now, so listen to me and obey me.”
As far crucifixion is concerned, The elders of the Jews were all trapped due to their misdeeds and due to the preaching of Jesus a.s. The elders even went to Mary(am) complaining about the preaching of Jesus. She was not allowed to indulge into any debate. That is all written in the Quran chapter 19.
The elders praised Mary calling her sister of Aaron a.s. Praised her father and mother too. But they complained about Jesus and wanted her help to appease her son to calm down. But she did not agree and she said, “He is talking about religious matters. You are also elders of religion. You please discuss it with him.”
At that time, the elders said, “How can we sensibly discuss anything (have meaningful words) with the one who was (or had been)a child in the cradle (who used to drink mothers milk but has just left off drinking mothers milk (Arabic “Sabai”).
The elders had accused Jesus a.s. about many things but none could be proved. Being a Jew, Jesus a.s. could never proclaim to be a god amongst the Jews. Had Jesus any day claimed to be a god, that would have been the last day of his preaching and no one would have followed him.
But there was a multitude of people walking behind Jesus a.s. Those people were not fools. They were honest, talented Jews.
Nowadays, the words of the Bible NT have been specially amended (molded) to give the impression that Jesus claimed to be God.
He never did that. When they accused him, he said, “You say that.” “You say that.” means I do not say that. You say that.
The Bible is being altered everyday to confuse the poor Christians into wrong understanding.
It is now being amended as “It is as you say.” That is very bad deed, playing with the scripture, playing with whatever is left of the scripture.
The real reason of Crucifixion was, as pointed by Ali Qadir, that elders wanted to prove that Jesus was a false prophet and accursed of God, away from the mercy of God.
They wanted to kill Jesus on the cross to exonerate themselves on the day of judgment of any punishment from God about disobeying Jesus a.s. The elders wanted to prove to God on the day of judgment that Jesus was a cursed person and not beloved of God.
All these things should be known to all Christians. They are being misguided by their own people, just like most Muslims are being misguided by their own scholars.
Zia Shah & Ghulam Sarwar, you can twist and turn Christ’s words any which way which suits your needs. Yet you will get no where because the TRUTH IS THERE IN THE GOSPELS which you chaps have twisted.
The Gospels say THAT CHRIST WAS KILLED by the Jews FOR CLAIMING HE WAS GOD but you’ll give a different spin to it.
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In the Name of Allah the Most Gracious Ever Merciful
Dear Ashok Saldana, First of all I welcome you in the Muslim Times forum, you are welcome to defend your view point to us and even preach to us and I assure you that if you have won our heart and mind by sound logic, we will join your religion without fail or delay, but with same token expect the same from you and your community.
Mr. Ali Qadir have given good explanation, so I am not going to produce just repetition. I may make it clear over here for you that it is neither Dr. Zia Shah nor Mr. Ghulam Server nor I who have twisted and turn the Christ words, but the matter of fact is you perceive it not.
THE HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF is a famous phrase, it was true in the past, it is true today and perhaps it would be true in future as well, the matter of fact is no one pay head to it and fall in the same pitfall and destroyed as the earlier nations. The matter of fact is that THE RELIGIOUS LANGUAGE IS ALWAYS METAPHORICAL, the earlier Nations like Jews took them too literal,denounced Jesus (p.b.h) and were destroyed spiritually and so you are doing and so is doing the Muslim Clergy. If the words you are referring to is really spoken by Jesus (p.b.h) then the only way to have agreement in the words of God in both the Testament is to take them as metaphorical otherwise, there will be contradictions in the words of God in Old Testament and in New Testament, and hence you can keep one and lose the other as admitted by your apologist William Lane Craig.
Dear Ashok Saldana think this way:
What a frail your god-head was who entered in the womb of a woman (although a very poise woman) and devolve in the womb of her mother for the same period of time as an ordinary person, suckling the nipples of her mother like ordinary person eating and drinking like an ordinary person, doing the call of nature like an ordinary person, worshiping his Father The God like an ordinary person, praying and calling his Father The God like others do, and he was abased by the Jews by the most poor way, the Jews hanged him on the cross and he could not help himself, they spit on his face, and he could not help himself, they put thorny hat on his head and he could not help himself and even when he has done his job and rose up, he was still scared from the Jews and hiding himself from them and only walked and eat bread and fish with his disciples only. Is that your god?? What is his Creation??? If he listen to you and answer your call???
For further readings, in this regard, please brows http://www.alislam.org and read, “Christianity a journey from facts to fiction by Mirza Tahir Ahmad” available on the same website.
Zarif Ahmad
Zarif Ahmad, thank you for your well worded piece which SAID A LOT but went nowhere since I have heard these arguments ad nauseum not only here but on other boards too. First kindly ask Zia Shah to PLEASE NOT EDIT MY RIPOSTES to you chaps. He has this habit of removing the meat in my posts and keeping the bones.
Please answer me these questions which I find none of you have time nor the inclination to reply to WITHOUT BEING SPIN DOCTORS.
1.) The Jews crucified the Christ because HE CLAIMED DIVINITY which is clearly written in the Gospels.
2. Christ FORGAVE SINS (a thing ONLY GOD CAN DO) and was EVEN QUESTIONED by the Jews regarding this.
3. Christ will JUDGE THE LIVING & THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY (a thing even acknowledged by the koran) ONLY God can judge.
4. Christ SAID “Go baptise in the Name of the FATHER, SON & SPIRIT”… What do you think He was talking about?
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An apple cannot be a rock and a monkey at the same time.
Likewise, a man cannot be God at the same time. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs and the Christian apologists have a few ambiguous statements to offer from 2000 years old writings.
The case of Jesus being only man and not divine is on very firm and on unshakable grounds:
How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee
Ashok Saldanha, please provide reliable reference to your following questions. I will reply.
If you have concerns about parts off your posts chipped off, I believe those must be some harsh or filthy words. Otherwise, reliable, decent words of good arguments are never clipped.
Here are your questions. Post your references alongside the questions please, in exact words (verses) of the Bible NT (gospel only): Welcome.
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1.) The Jews crucified the Christ because HE CLAIMED DIVINITY which is clearly written in the Gospels.
2. Christ FORGAVE SINS (a thing ONLY GOD CAN DO) and was EVEN QUESTIONED by the Jews regarding this.
3. Christ will JUDGE THE LIVING & THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY (a thing even acknowledged by the koran) ONLY God can judge.
4. Christ SAID “Go baptise in the Name of the FATHER, SON & SPIRIT”… What do you think He was talking about?
Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/03/monotheism/william-lane-craigs-confession-if-we-examine-trinity-through-the-lens-of-the-old-testament-it-is-not-believable-2#ixzz3EvHrLOoV
Zia Shah, YOU BLASHPHEME by putting a limit to the power of God by saying He CANNOT.
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Now Zia Shah you had posted “please give us a break. A man cannot be God at the same time, just like an apple cannot be a rock and an monkey at the same time.”
NOW I reply that you give me a break and publish this that an apple CANNOT do anything but God CAN.
God is Omniscient and All-Powerful, but, cannot make another God, for the new god will not be then eternal.
God cannot have a son, for He does not have a spouse.
God cannot lie, for it is below His dignity.
God cannot make a stone, which it cannot lift for that is contradictory.
If God can make gods then Hinduism is the best religion, with its millions of gods!
Ashok Saldanha God can do EVERYTHING THAT THAT He wishes. Not what we wish. That is written in the Quran and I can give reference.
Can you please give reference from your bible (GOSPEL) about your writing that God CAN DO everything. Welcome.