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Gender Equality in the Holy Qur’an – In the Beginning Man and Woman Were Equal

Epigraph:

“But whoso does good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such shall enter Heaven, and shall not be wronged even as much as the little hollow in the back of a date-stone.” (Al Qur’an 4:125)

gender-equality

Written by Dr. Lutf ur Rehman. Nashville, USA

With the advent of modern education and inclusion of women in the workforce over the last two centuries, the patriarchal nature of societies is also in a state of flux. Over the course of human history, men have dominated the role of leadership in these societies. Even today a great majority of human population lives in this arrangement. It worked well when physical strength was an asset. Most of the work was done manually and fighting in the army required physical strength. Men had a great advantage over women in this area. Therefore the societies were aligned to suit their interests. Women were assigned to a subservient role and were mostly confined to home and domestic work. Over the course of human history this role of women – rearing children and caring for the home and her husband – became their normal function in the society. They were not included in the affairs of men and were considered inferior in many ways. Men literally owned their women like livestock and property. Women had no rights – their fate was decided by the word and wishes of their men. They were not given education, had no say in their marriage, could not own property, and required permission of their men folk to do anything in their lives. Any woman who would not follow such norms in the society was punished and sometimes even killed by her own father, brother or husband, and it was considered honorable for men to do so. Political and religious systems were often used to perpetuate such oppression of women. 

Christian Arab writer, Norma Khouri noted, honor killings originate from the belief that a woman’s chastity is the property of her family, a cultural norm that comes “from our ancient tribal days, from the Hammurabi and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C.”[i]  Matthew A. Goldstein, J.D. (Arizona), has also noted that honor killings were encouraged in ancient Rome, where male family members who did not take actions against the female adulterers in their family were “actively persecuted.”[ii] The Roman law of ‘pater familias’ gave complete control to the men of the family for both their children and wives. Under these laws, the lives of children and wives were at the sole discretion of the men in their family. 

In the sixth century Arabia, men were ashamed if a daughter was born in their household. Many who considered themselves courageous and brave would bury their daughters after their birth to get rid of the shame. The practice was considered honorable. Qays bin Asim, ancient leader of Banu Tamim is credited by some historians as the first to kill children on the basis of honor. It is recorded that he murdered all of his daughters to prevent them from ever causing him any kind of dishonor. This is the time which was called the time of ignorance or “Jahiliyyah” by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him). He brought a message which was forward looking, open minded and based upon principals of justice for all – men and women. Holy Qur’an is the Word of God and a lasting source of guidance for all Muslims for all times. 

Let us examine if Qur’an accepts or prescribes an inferior role for women?

Creation

Qur’an uses the word khalaqa to describe creation. Khalaqa means to create, to bring something into existence from a state of non-existence. The account of creation in the Qur’an also makes it clear that the creation happened in several steps and not all at once:

Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels, ‘I am going to create a human of clay: (primordial soup) when I perfect it in every way (evolution), and blow into it of my ruh (spiritual awareness), all of you should bow down before it.’ (Al Qur’an 38: 72-73)

Qur’an addresses many aspects of creation in different verses. If we look at the creation of human beings, Qur’an does not tell us if man was created before the woman or if woman was created from man thus implying an inferior status as part is not equal to the whole. Qur’an does not say that Adam was the first man. It also does not say that Eve was created from Adam’s rib. These concepts have come to us from the Bible:

And God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (Genesis 2:21-22)

There are some Ahadith which tell us that Eve was created from man’s rib but all of them are considered weak as their sources are weak and all originated from one person, Ibn Abbas. The content (matn) of these Ahadith is also in contradiction to Qur’anic version of creation. Therefore these Ahadith are best disregarded. 

Then there are some other Ahadith where women are compared with the shape of a rib or derived from a rib. Some are mentioned in Bokhari and Muslim, the two most influential Hadith collections in Sunni Islam. One such hadith is quoted here:

‘Abd al-‘Aziz related to us that he was reporting on the authority of ‘Abd Allah who said: Malik had told us that he was reporting on the authority of Abu Zinad who was reporting on the authority of al-A’raj who was reporting on the authority of Abu Hurairah (with whom may Allah be pleased) who said: Allah’s Rasul (may peace be on him) said:The woman is like a rib, if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some crookedness. (Bokhari)

With regards to the isnad (list of transmitters) the following may be noted: All these ahadith are cited on the authority of Abu Hurairah, a Companion who was regarded as controversial by many early Muslim scholars, including Imam Abu Hanifah (A.D. 700-767),founder of the largest Sunni school of law (fiqh). All six of such ahadith in Bokhari and Muslim are gharib (the lowest grade of hadith classification) because they contain a number of transmitters who were single reporters. All of these six ahadith are da’if (weak) because they have a number of unreliable transmitters. Matn (content) of these Ahadith is also contrary to Qur’anic version of creation of human beings, which we shall examine now: 

O people be aware of your Lord, Who created you (humans) from a single soul (nafs) and created therefrom mates for you. (4:2)

He it is who has created you from a single soul (nafs). (7:190)

(God) created you (humans) from a single soul (nafs). (39:7)

Qur’an describes creation of human beings from a single soul – nafs – which is a gender neutral term. From this nafs, God created both man and woman.

Allah also tells us in the Qur’an that He perfected the creation of humans:

Surely We created the humankind in the best stature. (95:5)

Allah it is Who …. fashioned you , and perfected your shapes. (40:65)

Who (God) gave everything He created the best form. (32:7)

Here perfection means that God created humans exactly as He wanted to. Also a look at these verses and many others in the Qur’an make it clear that the creation did not happen all at once. The creation of humans was perfected over time, pointing towards evolution. One of the names of God is “Musawwir,” meaning an artist:

He is God, The Creator, The Maker, The Fashioner (Musawwir). His are the most beautiful attributes. (Al Qur’an 59:25)

Just like an artist, God started with the basics and over time brought His creation to perfection, the process of evolution.

In the account of creation God has not assigned any superiority to one gender over the other for any reason. Qur’an describes the final step of creation as follows:

Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to create a human of clay: (primordial soup) when I perfect it in every way (evolution), and blow into it of my ruh (spiritual awareness), all of you should bow down before it. (Al Qur’an 38: 72-73)

Once again God put His spirit equally in man and woman. 

Adam and Eve in the Garden

It is clear from Qur’anic descriptions that the Garden was never intended as the dwelling place for the humans. Allah’s plan for humans was to function in the earth as His trustee.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth. (Al Qur’an 2:31)

In the Garden humans had no need to struggle for the basic necessities of life such as food, clothing and shelter:

It is given unto you that you hunger not therein, neither are you naked, And you thirst not therein nor are you exposed to the sun’s heat. (Al Qur’an 20:119-120)

However in the Garden, and on earth, humans share the same test: the choice between obedience and disobedience. Allah warns Adam and Eve against approaching one of the trees in the Garden. The Qur’an does not give special attributes to the tree itself. It is merely a symbol of the test.

It is noteworthy that, with one exception, the Quran always uses the Arabic dual form to tell how Satan tempted both Adam and Eve and how they both disobeyed:

But Satan caused them both to slip and be expelled from where they resided. (Al Qur’an 2:37)

In maintaining the dual form, the Qur’an overcomes the negative Biblical and Judaic implications that the woman was the cause of evil and damnation.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (1Timothy 2:11-12)

Moreover Qur’an clearly states that individuals – men and women – are responsible for their own actions:

Upon recognition of the error that they had made, both of them (Adam and Eve) repented and asked for forgiveness. They said, ‘Our Lord we have wronged ourselves; and if You forgive us not and have not mercy on us, we shall surely be of the lost.’ (Al Qur’an 7:24)

The one exception to the Qur’anic use of the dual form to refer to the temptation and disobedience of Adam and Eve in the Garden, singles out Adam:

And the devil whispered to him saying: ‘O Adam! Shall I show you the tree of immortality and power that does not waste away?’ Then the two of them (Adam and his wife) ate of the fruit (of the forbidden tree), so their shame became manifest to them and they started covering themselves with leaves. And Adam disobeyed his Lord, so went astray. (Al Qur’an 20:122)

Their Lord not only accepted their repentance and forgave them; He demonstrated a very special feature of Himself: mercy and grace. He extended to them, and to all the humans, the explicit guidance – revelation.

We can draw following guidance from this story of Adam and Eve in the Holy Qur’an.

Any human might disobey through forgetfulness, the general nature of human weakness, and the temptations of Satan, but one who recognizes his error, repents and asks for forgiveness, will be forgiven. Moreover, guidance is always available to humankind to remind them of their commitment to Allah and the guile of Satan, the enemy. This is a special mercy from their Lord. However, whoever disobeys through arrogance and intentional rebellion has been promised due punishment and eternal damnation. He is like Satan, who disobeyed and persisted in his arrogant, disobedient ways. 

The Equity of Recompense, The Hereafter in the Qur’an

The hereafter is divided into several stages: Death, Resurrection, Judgment and finally, Heaven or Hell.

Death is the first inevitable experience for each and every created being without distinction of gender, class, nationality, or time of existence. It is the first stage of the hereafter for each being. It marks the entrance to that realm:

Each nafs will taste death. And you will be paid on the day of Resurrection only that which you have fairly earned. Whoever is removed from the Fire and is made to enter Paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion. (Al Qur’an 3:186)

The term nafs is used in Qura’nic discussion of the hereafter. With regard to death, it is that  essential part of each being which experiences the passage from life in this known world into the unknown realm of the hereafter. It is central to the consideration of the Hereafter because it is this term that is used to elevate the Qura’nic discussions of recompense in the Hereafter above gender distinctions. 

The Resurrection is the first part of the Hereafter, unknown or unacceptable to the Arabs at the time of the revelation:

And they say: When we are bones and fragments, shall we be raised up a new creation? Say: Be you stones or iron or some created thing that is yet greater in your thoughts. They ask, ‘who shall restore us to life?’ Say, He who created you the first time. (Al Qur’an 17:50-52)

The Qur’an is emphatic that the day of Resurrection is unlike anything experienced before:

O humankind! Fear your Lord. Lo! The earthquake of the Hour (of doom) is a tremendous thing: On that day you will witness that every nursing mother will forget her nursing and every pregnant one will be delivered of her burden, and you will see people as drunken, yet they will not be drunken, but the Doom of Allah will be strong (upon them). (Al Qur’an 22:2-3)

Thus the day of Resurrection is a disruption of the order of the reality which we have known and lived.

Existence on earth is described in the Qur’an as a trial or test to see the value of the deeds performed by the individuals. At the Resurrection all humans will be brought back to life for judgment, which will be made by Allah, who knows what is secret and what is manifest:

And not a speck’s worth in the earth or in the sky escapes your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that. (Al Qur’an 10:62)

And whether you make known what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will bring you to account for it. (Al Qur’an 2:285)

All deeds of every individual will be weighed. This will indicate the true value or measure of the deeds. Evil things are without merit or weight. (weightless) The weight of all good things will be added and given increased value.

And He accepts the prayers of those who believe and do good works, and grants them more out of His Grace. (Al Qur’an 42: 27)

If the scales are light, one has been unsuccessful. If the scales are heavy, it is an indication of success:

And we set a just balance for the day of Resurrection, so that no nafs is wronged in the slightest. Even as it may be the weight of a grain of a mustard seed, we bring it forth. (Al Qur’an 21:48)

Then as for him whose scales are heavy (with good works), he will live a pleasant life. But as for him whose scales are light, the Bereft and Hungry one will be his mother. Ah, what will convey to you what she is! Raging fire. (Al Qur’an 101:7-12) 

Lo! This life of the world is but a passing comfort, and lo! The Hereafter is the enduring home. Whoever does an ill deed, he will be repaid the like thereof, while whoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, (all) such will enter the Garden. (Al Qur’an 40:40-41)

With regard to the Hereafter, individual responsibility and experience is given more emphasis. It is the individual who experiences death, the transition from the living world to the Hereafter: “Each nafs will taste of death.” (3:186). The recompense awarded is also on the basis of the individual. Whether a man or woman, each is rewarded individually according to what he or she earns and there is a single scale of judgment.

So in the Qur’anic narrative recompense is acquired through actions performed by the individual before death:

And Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth, and each nafs may be repaid what it has earned. And they will not be wronged. (Al Qur’an 45:23)

No one can diminish the merits earned by another; neither can anyone increase them. No one can share in the merits achieved by another, nor in the punishment which will be given:

And fear the day when no nafs will avail of another in the slightest, nor intercession be of use to it, nor will compensation be accepted from it, nor will they be helped. (Al Qur’an 2:49)

There is no possibility of gender discrimination on this subject as Qur’an has been very explicit in addressing men and women separately and equally:

And those who do good works, male or female, and is a believer, they shall enter the Garden.(Al Qur’an 4:125)

Whoso acted righteously, male or female and is a believer, We shall surely grant them a pure life: and We shall surely bestow upon them their reward according to the best of their works. (Al Qur’an 16:98) 

The Final Abode

The Qur’an acknowledges our earthly values and fears:

We verily created humankind and We know what his nafs whispers to him and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. (Al Qur’an 50:17)

It states emphatically that Allah knows what is hidden and what is secret.

For those who disobey Allah and whose deeds were lighter, they will be placed in Hell:

Woe unto the repudiators on that day! Depart unto that which you used to deny. Depart unto the shadow falling three fold. Which yet is no relief, nor shelter from the flame … This is the day wherein they speak not. (Al Qur’an 77:29-32, 36) 

Paradise

The Qur’an depicts Paradise in more exquisite details than other unseen phenomena. In general, the depictions of Paradise are meant to entice the reader towards the afterlife. There are some forms given to the pleasures of Paradise which are specific to the audience at the time of the revelation, the desert dwellers of seventh century Arabia. Thus the appeals of the descriptions of ‘gardens with rivers flowing beneath’ is greater for someone living in an arid desert environment than, perhaps, for someone living in the tropics of Malaysia.

However, to confine the Qur’an to only that context would be incorrect. The Qur’an is from God, and not confined to or exhausted by one society or its history. Although the perspectives of the seventh century Arabs were given significant consideration in the Qur’an’s modes of expressions, its eternal message is not limited to any single form of articulation. The values indicated by the text transcend the particular modes of expression. One must determine how those particulars are significant and express them in terms relevant to our own lives. Each new generation of Qur’anic readers must re-evaluate Qur’anic values and determine what they mean to them:

And no nafs knows what supreme joy is hidden (awaiting) them, as a reward for their good works. (Al Qur’an 32:18)

Since Paradise and its pleasures are beyond human comprehension, the resemblance in these descriptions to pleasures experienced in this world must be taken analogously. First the Qur’an acknowledges the good (khayr) in some earthly things, like wealth, power, food, family status, offspring, and women:

Beautified for mankind is love of the joys from women and offspring, and stored up heaps of gold and silver, and horses branded (with their mark), and cattle and land. That is the comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode. Say shall I inform you of something better than that? For those who keep from evil, with their Lord are gardens.  (Al Qur’an 3:15-16)

Zawj in the Hereafter

Among other pleasures of the Paradise, Qur’an describes companions for the believers. These companions have been the subject of great discussions among the Muslims as well as the non-Muslims.

The term Hur-al-Ayn meant something specific to the Arabs. She was so called because of her whiteness or fairness or cleanness. She was a woman of clear complexion and skin. The descriptions given are specific and sensual – youthful, virgin females with large dark eyes, white skin, and a pliant character. The specific depiction of the companions of Paradise demonstrates the Qur’an’s familiarity with the dreams and desires of the Arabs. The Qur’an offers the Hur as an incentive to aspire after truth. It is notable that after the Makkan period, the Qur’an does not use the term Hur again. It describes the companions of the Paradise in generic terms:

For those who keep from evil, with their Lord are gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pure azwaj and contentment from Allah. (Al Qur’an 3:16)

These believers are male and females and azwaj is a gender neutral term. 

The Qur’anic use of ‘you and your azwaj’ with regard to the hereafter needs a closer look. First, the separation between good and evil takes precedence and the individual is recompensed only in accordance with his or her deeds:

This is the day of separation, which you used to deny. Assemble those who did wrong, together with their azwaj and what they used to worship. (Al Qur’an 37:22-23)

Second, the Qur’an reminds us that only those who have done right will attain reward in Paradise, even if on earth they were related.

Our Lord! And make them enter the Gardens of eternity which You have promised them, with such of their fathers and their azwaj and their descendants as do right. (Al Qur’an 40:9)

Thus the use of ‘you and your azwaj’ means you and whoever is paired with you because of like nature, deeds, faith etc.

The emphasis then is on partnership, friendship, comfort, and harmony in Paradise, as opposed to the isolation, loneliness, and despair of Hell. Perhaps one might be reunited with his or her earthly spouse in Paradise, provided that the basis for the reunion is shared belief and good deeds. 

Some commentators use the Qur’anic statements that there will be pure azwaj (i.e. plural) as an indication that a pious man will go to Paradise and will have multiple Hur for his pleasure. Indeed, it is a contradiction of terms that a pious man who practices self-constraint should have multiple erotic pleasures as his objective. The use of the plural azwaj corresponds to the use of the plural preceding it: for ‘believers’ (and such terms). The usage is meant to indicate that companionship awaits those who believe (men and women) in their attainment of Paradise – not that each man will get multiple wives. 

Paradise offers a standard at an even higher level: the perspective of Allah. From this perspective, the greatest importance of Paradise is attaining peace, ending all want, transcending all earthly limitations and finally coming into the company of Allah. These highest pleasures are the same for female inhabitants of Paradise as for males. With regard to the eternal, both woman and man are equal in their potential to experience this highest transcendence. When Qur’an offers fulfillment of desire in Paradise, what is most important will be closeness to Allah. 

So the Paradise is described to the Muslim subconscious: whatever pleasure you like, such will await you in Paradise – if you restrain yourself from overindulgence, misuse and abuse here on earth. For the Arab patriarch, the primary audience of the Makkan period, it might be young virgin woman with white skin and large dark eyes. However, the Qur’an’s descriptions of the companions of Paradise must be viewed on the basis of its entire teachings, social and moral. 

Equality Before God

The Qur’an depicts human individuals as having inherently equal value by looking at three stages in human existence. First, in the creation of humans, the Qur’an emphasizes the single origin of all humankind. “He created you from a single soul.” (4:2) Second, with regard to development here on earth, the Qur’an emphasizes that the potential for change, growth and development lies within the nafs of the individual (or the group) as well. “Allah does not change the condition of a folk until they (first) change what is in their anfus (plural of nafs).” (13:12) Finally, all human activity is given recompense on the basis of what the individual earns. (4:125) 

The Qur’an does make distinctions between people. The value of the distinctions between humankind on earth can be clearly summed up by the Qur’anic statement in sura Al-Hujarat:

We created you from male and female and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed the most noble of you from Allah’s perspective is whoever has the most taqwa. (Al Qur’an 49:14)

It is clear that the Qur’an does not assign a higher value to a human based upon gender. They are both considered partners (Zawj) of each other and a source of comfort for each other:

And the believers, men and women, are friends of one another. They preach virtue and discourage evil. They observe salat, pay zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. It is these upon whom Allah will have mercy. (Al Qur’an 9:71)

And:

Surely, men who submit themselves to God and women who submit themselves to Him, and believing men and believing women, and obedient men and obedient women and truthful men and truthful women, and men steadfast in their faith and steadfast women, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, and men who remember Allah much and women who remember Him — Allah has prepared for all of them forgiveness and a great reward. (Al Qur’an 33:36)

References

[i] Honor Lost: Love and Death in Modern Day Jordan. 

[ii] The biological roots of heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings.

Categories: Asia, Highlight, ISLAM, Women, Women In islam, Women Rights

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121 replies ›

  1. Congratulations for beautiful depiction and presentation of truth about the creation of mankind. A Man and a woman together are made as one whole without any regard to who is superior. For lack of understanding in the so-called Western culture, women are sometimes thought to be inferior to men in Islam. Whereas the truth is that a daughter brings about the highest reward from God if brought up with love and care who shall be mother of next generation. Being a mother, is given the highest status in true Islam where the paradise is placed under the feet of your mother!

    Reply

  2. Very interesting and informative- especially that after the Makkan period, the Holy Qur’an does not use the term Hur as a reward for men in the life hereafter. It uses a generic term the companions of the Paradise.

    Reply

  3. since long i was wandering in search of such an article which is completely written with all its explanation according to the Quranic verses.
    From the depth of my heart i am grateful to you for
    providing me such a self explanatory article on the
    subject of Gender Equality.

    Reply

  4. Hi,

    Is it not true that women are not allowed to be leaders in the mosques, they are not to lead prayers or deliver sermons on Fridays, they cannot stand ahead of the men in prayer service or even alongside them, they cannot be prophets, they cannot drive alone (as in Saudi), they cannot go out of the house alone without a male guardian. They are also to be beaten if they do not follow instructions of their husbands. We also hear about inheritance, not being able to have full witness in a legal system and many other things.

    It would be great if you were to explain equality in light of the above.

    Thanks,

    Reply

  5. S.K.: We have to use a bit of common sense to understand this question. Equality in value does not mean exact equality in function. (Besides Arnold Schwarzenegger in a movie I am not aware of any man for instance who was pregnant). I suppose you are familiar with the Islamic prayer. Do you really think it appropriate that men should pray behind a female Imam? – Inheritance: yes, ladies inherit half and that half is for them to keep. Men inherit double that of females, but have to share their inheritance looking after the whole family. Who do you think has more cash in the end? If Islamic inheritance laws would be considered unfair then for the males.

    Reply

  6. Islam teaches equality of all humans regardless of their color, creed, gender or faith. We are all humans. This is the spirit of Islam. Mistreatment of women in some Islamic societies is either ignorance of those people or it is an economic, cultural, or educational issue. Most certainly it is not a religious teaching of Islam. I would address some specific issues.
    Prohibition of driving for women in Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with the teachings of the Holy Quran. There is not a single verse in the Holy Quran prohibiting women from going out of their houses of their own free will — to the market, to the school or college or to work or for any other reason just like men. No guardian is required! Millions of Muslim women leave their homes every day to go to work, school or market — without a guardian.
    As for the beating of women, once again it is a myth born out of ignorance. The holy Prophet has prohibited Muslims from striking even an animal. There are detailed instructions about the good treatment of animals. How can one even entertain the thought that a man can be permitted to strike a woman – his wife – just because she has a disagreement. There is no verse of the Holy Quran which permits such behavior.
    Similarly witness of a woman is equal to that of a man. There are many recorded instances in Islamic jurisprudence where cases were decided solely on the witness of women.
    It is true that if we look at the conduct of people in Muslim countries through the colored glasses of the western media and internet, it seems that they are all ignorant. Three of the most populous Muslim countries – Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh — have ELECTED female head of states in last thirty years – more than once!
    Short comings of a society cannot be blamed on their religion. If it was so then there are many Christian countries in the African continent such as Zimbabwe and many others who have trampled upon human rights, but we do not blame this on their Christian religion. Extremely dire situation of women in India cannot be blamed on their Hindu religion. The prostitution tourist mecca for the Western visitors — Thailand is not a Buddhist exhibit.
    When societies deteriorate, God sends reformers – Prophets — and through religion creates ways for them to rise again. So today when we see Muslims on their knees, instead of kicking them in their shin we should try to point to the best of the Islamic teachings so they can stand up and be proud of their traditions. This is the teaching of every Prophet and this is what Jesus also taught. And this is how world peace can be achieved.

    Reply

  7. Great presentation brother about the gender equality in the true islamic teachings.
    I am dissappointed with one brothers comment in the use of islamic symbols such as mecca and prostitution tourist as if to suggest they are connected. I hear so much loose usage of islamic terms and Holy symbols being advertised here and there giving the ignorant an impression that vegas , prostitution , and other unholy and unislamic beliefs and practices are associated with islam and its holy places and symbols. So please watch the language .thank you

    Reply

  8. The auther has tried to prove that God Almighty created Mn and Woman from Single element(nafas); their Evolution was a,so Tool Place in the Same conditions. They will die and After Death will be Trester alike. In paradise or hell,they get Same sort of reward or punishment. Who Differenz from that ? The question is why the women did notand still do Not enjoy the equal status in this wordly Life.

    Reply
  9. Pingback: Women Catholic Cardinals A Possibility With Pope Francis? | The Muslim Times

  10. Quite often I am left wondering whether you people read your own books at all before coming to the public domain. The writer of the above article has not addressed himself to the following verses of the quran but hastens to condemn the Bible for what he sees as the promotion of gender inequality.
    Sura 2(The Cow):25″AND WHEN THE LORD SAID TO THE ANGELS,’I AM SETTING IN EARTH A VICEROY(DEPUTY)’ THEY SAID—-HE SAID;’ASSUREDLY I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW NOT’.
    AND HE TAUGHT ADAM THE NAMES, ALL OF THEM”.
    I have not seen where it is said that Adam was not a man but a woman or a hermaphrodite. This passage is the first one to mention that there was ‘God’s’ representative on earth and he was a man. Why has Eve not been mentioned?
    Sura 2:30″HE SAID, ‘ADAM TELL ME THE NAMES OF THESE–“.
    ‘–WE SAID TO THE ANGELS, ‘BOW YOURSELVES TO ADAM–“.
    “–WE SAID, ‘ADAM DWELL THOU, AND THY WIFE –“.
    Adam had been mentioned at least four times before anything was said about his wife whose name is not even given. Everything said is directed at or to Adam.
    Sura 3(Imran):30 “GOD CHOSE THE HOUSE OF ADAM, NOAH AND IMRAN ABOVE ALL BEINGS–“.
    Why did this ‘God’ not deem it fit to choose the house of a woman among those held above all beings?
    Sura 3:50 “TRULY, THE LIKENESS OF JESUS, IN GOD’S SIGHT IS AS ADAM’S LIKENESS”.
    If Adam, the man, was not the first human to be created, why is ‘God’ so obsessed with him? Could allah not have compared the likeness of ‘Jesus’ with another person’s likeness preferably, a woman?
    Sura 7(Battlements):10″–WE SAID TO THE ANGELS:’BOW YOURSELVES TO ADAM–”
    :15 “O ADAM, INHERIT, THOU AND THY WIFE, THE GARDENS–“.
    Here authority is given to Adam but not the wife and the angels were asked to bow to him alone.
    Sura 7:25 “CHILDREN OF ADAM! WE HAVE SENT DOWN ON-”
    “-CHILDREN OF ADAM! LET NOT SATAN TEMPT–”
    “-CHILDREN OF ADAM! TAKE YOUR ADORNMENT-”
    :30″-CHILDREN OF ADAM! IF THERE SHOULD COME-”
    It is only Adam who is recognized as the parent in these passages. Was that ‘God’ instituting single parenthood or were the children born asexually?
    Sura 19(Mary):55 “–THESE ARE THEY WHOM GOD HAS BLESSED AMONG THE PROPHETS OF THE SEED OF ADAM-“.
    Sura 15(El Hijr):25 “–SEE, I AM CREATING A MORTAL OF CLAY MUD MOULDED, WHEN I HAVE SHAPED HIM (not her), AND BREATHED MY SPIRIT IN HIM(not her)’ FALL YOU DOWN, BOWING BEFORE HIM!
    Is there any doubt from the above passage, that the first human was a man? The quran does not say the ‘God’ created more than one human directly.
    Sura 20(Ta Ha):110 “–AND WE MADE A COVENANT WITH ADAM BEFORE, AND HE FORGOT–“.
    Why was the covenant made with Adam and not his wife if she or both of them were created at the same time?
    The idea of Adam being the first human is in the Holy Bible. That is where the quran picked its perverted form of creation from. But even at that, it still maintains that the man, Adam, was created first. No version of the quran that I have seen mentions Eve by name. Latter muhammadan writers took that name from the Bible.
    Let us now see what the Holy Bible says about gender equality.
    Galatians 3:27 “FOR AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST HAVE PUT ON CHRIST”.
    :28 “THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS”.
    This means absolute equality for everybody irrespective of gender or circumstances of birth.

    Reply

  11. In any generic form of speech the word man also includes woman in it. This is true of Qur’an and also of Old and New Testament. Most of the examples given in the above comment are of this nature. The word Adam is inclusive of the female.
    There are many places in the Qur’an where men and women are mentioned separately and equally.
    As for equality, one has to understand that this word cannot be used without context. Two sisters may not be equal if we are talking about their height or weight. But they will be equal as human beings. Similarly differences and in-equalities of men and women have been well documented. But as humans they are equal. This is the view of the Qur’an.
    As for the New Testament, there are many letters of different men which make up bulk of the book. In fact the biggest contributor, a man, who did not even know Jesus has maligned women so much that he advised his followers not to marry them as they distract from God. There is not a single page in the New Testament attributed to a woman. Rights of women in inheritance, witness, motherhood or marital rights such as divorce are not to be found in the New Testament. The fact that the New Testament does not mention almost any rights of the woman, which we talk about in modern day, shows the limited and incomplete nature of this book.
    The treatment of women in Christianity throughout their history is a tale of horrors. Islam on the other hand has elevated the position of woman in society, given her honor and protected her rights.

    Reply

  12. If Adam is used in a generic sense, then he must have been a transvestite or hermaphrodite for the quran talks about ‘Adam, and thy wife’. It further goes to confirm the uncertainty of the quran.
    To show the quranic ‘equality’ sura 4:35 says
    “MEN ARE THE MANAGERS OF THE AFFAIRS OF WOMEN
    FOR THAT GOD HAS PREFERRED IN BOUNTY ONE OF
    THEM OVER ANOTHER, AND FOR THAT THEY HAVE
    EXPENDED THEIR PROPERTY—BANISH THEM–AND
    BEAT THEM”.
    The impression here is that women are incapable of managing even their own affairs let alone other responsibilities.
    One has to look beyond the quran at other muhammadan sources to discover the ‘equal’ status of women.
    Bukhari 4:32 “ALLAH’S APOSTLE SAID,’IF AT ALL THERE
    IS BAD OMEN, IT IS THE HOUSE, THE
    WOMAN AND THE HORSE”‘.
    Bukhari 7:33 “THE PROPHET SAID,’AFTER ME I HAVE NOT
    LEFT ANY AFFLICTION MORE HARMFUL TO
    MEN THAN WOMEN'”

    Aisha, told the husband that by saying that women, dogs and horses annul prayers he was equating the women folk to dogs. He did not deny that statement.
    Why does the equality of women see them as bad omen and the worst affliction to men or equate them to animals?
    Muhamamd went further to say that any society ruled by a woman cannot make progress. Has he not been proved wrong in countries such as Britain, Israel, Germany, Argentina, Sri Lanka and a host of others where women led their countries to progress? In muhammadan countries such as Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh, women became leaders in spite of Muhammad’s prediction.
    On inheritance, while in muhammadanism an only child, who is a daughter, is entitled to 1/3 of the family’s worth,the Bible says this in Numbers 27:8
    “–IF A MAN DIES WITHOUT A SON, THEN YE SHALL
    CAUSE HIS INHERITANCE TO PASS UNTO HIS
    DAUGHTER”.
    Muhammad said that he stood at the gate of paradise and saw that most of the inhabitants of hell were women. This shows that women are more sinful than men in muhammadanism. There is no such pronouncement anywhere in the Bible.
    Looking after ones family is so compulsory that it is held in 1 Timothy 5:7
    “BUT IF ANY PROVIDE NOT FOR HIS OWN, AND
    ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSE, HE
    HATH DENIED THE FAITH, AND IS WORSE THAN AN
    INFIDEL”.
    This includes inheritance and there is no discrimination between the gender of those in the house. The same applies to the inheritance in heaven for the saints, who are of both gender.
    Several women are mentioned by name in the New Testament as having played pivotal roles in Christianity. One of them is described as ‘a disciple’. Apart from Mary and the three goddesses, one cannot think of another woman whose name is worthy to be called in the quran. None of Muhammad’s wives, not even his favorite Aisha, is mentioned by name.
    How equal are women to men in muahamadanism?

    Reply

  13. The woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an is Mary, mother of Jesus. Her name is mentioned with honor and respect. She has been presented as a role model for all women.
    I will quote one verse in the above comment.
    “BUT IF ANY PROVIDE NOT FOR HIS OWN, AND
    ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSE, HE
    HATH DENIED THE FAITH, AND IS WORSE THAN AN
    INFIDEL”.
    The verse addresses man. No mention of woman. Once again, women are included in the male gender. There is no mention of inheritance in this verse. The author of this verse, Paul, did not marry and advised the same to his followers. He considered women evil. The catholic clergy avoids the company of women to this day! When was it that we had a married pope with family?
    I am not sure why Adam is being called a “hermaphrodite” over and over again. I would like to point out that the Adam of Qur’an and Bible is the same person. He was a Prophet of God and an honorable man.
    Women have been given a position of honor and respect in the Qur’an. No where in the Qur’an men have been made “managers” or “guardians” over women. Most of the quotes of the Prophet in the above comment are made up and wrong.

    Reply

  14. This is becoming a battle of “women rights,” in Islam, Christianity and the modern Western civilization.

    Let us compare apples with apples. The best, the worst and the usual in each case.

    We also need to make distinction between the teachings and the ground reality in societies.

    Would anyone enlighten us about domestic violence and rape statistics in the modern Western world, please?

    It is also interesting to note, when Islam gave women rights to inherit property and when did the Western countries do that. Almost a 1300 years gap.

    As we quibble about minor details and reasons behind those, let us not forget the big picture here.

    Reply

  15. We have to ‘compare apples with apples’. Rape and domestic violence cases are reported in the West so that the culprits can be punished. In Muslim societies there is a strange sense of justice. A rape victim is required to produce witnesses to the crime and even if she did, the odds will still be stacked against her. Where she does not have witnesses, as is more often the case, then she receives punishment for having had illegal sex. In a situation like that, how would a rape victim have confidence in the justice system to report her having been violated? That is why there is no or near absence of reports.
    An example took place in the Maldives where a teenage girl was raped by her step father who went ahead to kill their child from that violation. She was found guilty and sentenced to 100 lashes while he was not charged with any offense; not even the infanticide drew the attention of the law. That, as you well know, cannot happen in the West.
    You must have seen from Numbers 28:7 that the Bible gave the right of inheritance to women during Moses’ time. That was at least 2,000 years before Muhammad.
    I do not know what you mean be “quibbling over minor details” and “not forgetting the bigger picture”. Whatever it may be, bring it up.
    I have also noticed that in the index where my comment is listed a quotation not made by me is placed underneath it. That is dishonesty. I should not be credited with what I have not authored.

    Reply

  16. Namelee, unlike you we are not wearing thick glasses of prejuidice, where you cannot see any good in Muslims and Islam and vice versa, when it comes to Christians and Christianity.

    We do agree that in some of the so called Muslim countries, Mullahs have erected strange laws about rape, due to their literal interpretation of some verses. It is matter of simple common sense to use DNA evidence or other evidence available. There is nothing in the Holy Quran telling you to give up your common sense. Good DNA evidence, in my opinion would be equal to four, very reliable eye witnesses.

    Here I link an article from wikipedia about women rights, with details, good, bad and ugly, including, what Christianity did to many of the European countries:

    Legal rights of women in history.

    You can as usual choose to ignore every thing negative in Christians or Christianity and keep harping on your criticism of Muslims and Islam, sometimes real and most often only perceived.

    Let me highlight one line for you, “A marriage between a Christian and a Jew rendered the parties guilty of adultery.”

    In Islam the Muslims were allowed to marry Jews and Christians.

    Now let me quote from another Wikipedia article:

    According to English Common Law, which developed from the 12th century onward, all property which a wife held at the time of a marriage became a possession of her husband. Eventually English courts forbade a husband’s transferring property without the consent of his wife, but he still retained the right to manage it and to receive the money which it produced. French married women suffered from restrictions on their legal capacity which were removed only in 1965.[67] In the 16th century, the Reformation in Europe allowed more women to add their voices, including the English writers Jane Anger, Aemilia Lanyer, and the prophetess Anna Trapnell. English and American Quakers believed that men and women were equal. Many Quaker women were preachers.[68] Despite relatively greater freedom for Anglo-Saxon women, until the mid-19th century, writers largely assumed that a patriarchal order was a natural order that had always existed.[69] This perception was not seriously challenged until the 18th century when Jesuit missionaries found matrilineality in native North American peoples.

    Reply

  17. Zia Shah,
    I will address the rest of your article later. But I want to immediately go to where you said “IN ISLAM MUSLIMS WERE ALLOWED TO MARRY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS”. What you deliberately refused to add is that only muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women. Christian and Jewish men cannot marry muslim women. It is in the quran. Such mixed marriages have resulted in ‘honor killing’ which is worse than the ‘adultery’ attributed to the marriage between a Christian and a Jew at whatever point of history that you mentioned.
    You accused me of being selective and seeing nothing good in islam. Are you not being selective in your choice …

    Reply

  18. The articles, which have been linked above have a very detailed discussion about women rights in different religions and societies.

    Readers are smart enough to see through any unnecessary editorial comments and prejudices, maligning one group or religion.

    My focus in approving comments, in this thread, would be new information both positive or negative in different religions and societies, in relatively objective language.

    I live in USA and am very happy to be here rather than in any of the so called Muslim countries, this should give me a certain degree of objectivity.

    Reply

  19. First, the DNA issue. Of course DNA tests are preferable because they are more dependable. But what happens where facilities for such tests are not available? The decision of the mullah will prevail.
    Leaving in the USA or any other part of the free world is no guarantee of objectivity. The choice of what is to be published is entirely yours irrespective of whether the information if new or old.

    Reply

  20. Let somebody mention a mosque which is attended by both sexes that has a female imam in support of the much trumpeted, but empty talk, of gender equality.

    Reply

    • Gender equality? Are you married? Do you have children? If so, please make sure YOU carry the next ones (and not your wife). We believe in equal values but not in equal functions. VIVE LA DIFFERENCE!

      Reply

  21. Rafiq,
    “WE BELIEVE IN EQUAL VALUES BUT NOT IN EQUAL FUNCTIONS”.
    That is escapism. What stops a woman from performing the functions of an imam to a mixed congregation? One of you said that the Pope and Catholic priests do not marry and that shows the relegation of women to an inferior status. It is now obvious who has little regard for women.
    I am married with children but I do not see what that has to do with this debate.

    Reply

  22. And those who do good works, male or female, and is a believer, they shall enter the Garden.(Al Qur’an 4:125)

    Whoso acted righteously, male or female and is a believer, We shall surely grant them a pure life: and We shall surely bestow upon them their reward according to the best of their works. (Al Qur’an 16:98)
    —————————
    namelee, let us go back to scriptures and use the god given guidance of sacred books (if yo have any).

    In the original article, many verses of the Quran and the Bible have been presented. They show nothing wrong with Quran (which does not blame Eve for the disobedience). Whereas, bible clearly blames the lady that she misled her man (Adam).

    Let us not discuss from our own wishes. Let the sacred words prevail. Now you are questioning “Why a woman cannot lead the sermon in the mosque??”

    I remember having read some where in the Bible that women were ordered not to speak in the church. Please compare our Islamic teaching with what the Church said. We have no objection to that advice of the church for the women to keep quiet in the church. It seems to be good advice and alright. Will you kindly comment on this subject please??

    Islam has given some rights to the ladies in he matter of inheritance. Church (or Bible) has given nothing to the ladies. Church has not even given the right of divorce to the ladies who may be suffering in their marriage…….

    Reply

  23. Ghulam Sharwar,
    It is evident that you do not read my posts. Otherwise, … (sorry, cancelled senseless accusations… Rafiq).

    Reply

  24. If you were really convinced that what I posted amounted to ‘senseless accusations’, you could have left it there and challenged me to produce my authorities. By not doing that shows that you are either ignorant of your own religion, which I cannot be blamed for, or you are afraid to face the plain truth.
    All the facts in that comment come from your literature. Challenge me to substantiate.

    Reply

  25. Do substantiate and sometimes also defend your own scripture please. Please do not cut and paste. Just give us 2-3 references to chew on, as I am giving you one from the Bible.

    Are the labor pains a result of the Original Sin, as suggested by the third chapter of Genesis?

    If so, women are under constant punishment and we do not see any such visible sign of punishment, in case of men. What do you say?

    Reply

  26. Zia Shah,
    If only you will post my comments, you will notice that I do defend my religion.
    Whatever you mean by ‘do not cut and paste’ does not apply to me. I always do my analysis and give the references. Both charges are highly misplaced.
    I had stated that Muhammad was violent to Aisha and allowed the same to be done to the wives of his followers. It seems that sparked Rafiq to delete that post on the ground of what he termed ‘senseless accusations’. Since you want substantiation, I will do just that.
    Sura 4:34 “MEN HAVE AUTHORITY OVER WOMEN BECAUSE
    ALLAH HAS MADE THE ONE SUPERIOR TO THE
    OTHERS—AS FOR THOSE FROM WHOM YOU
    FEAR DISOBEDIENCE–BEAT THEM—“.
    That gives authority to the man to beat his wife on a charge which he alone is the accuser and the judge. There is no independent verification of the offense.
    Arising from that Abu Dawud 11:2142 “–THE PROPHET-
    SAID: A MAN WILL NOT BE ASKED AS TO WHY
    HE BEAT HIS WIFE–”
    On her own case, Aisha said in
    Muslim 04(kitab al-salat):2127″–HE SAID WAS IT
    THE DARKNESS(OF YOUR SHADOW)THAT I SAW
    IN FRONT OF ME? I SAID: YES. HE STRUCK
    ME IN THE CHEST WHICH CAUSED ME PAIN,
    AND THEN HE SAID, DID YOU THINK THAT
    ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE WILL DEAL
    WITH YOU UNJUSTLY?–“.
    Muhammad did not admonish his companions about their ill-treatment of their wives. As i said in the deleted post, such action became his sunna for all of you to emulate.
    Bukhari 7:72:715 “RIFA’A DIVORCED HIS WIFE WHERE-
    UPON ABDURRAHMAN BIN AZ-ZUBAIR
    MARRIED HER. AISHA SAID THAT THE LADY
    CAME WEARING A GREEN VEIL(AND
    COMPLAINED TO AISHA OF HER HUSBAND AND
    SHOWED HER A GREEN SPOT ON HER SKIN
    CAUSED BY BEATING)–SO WHEN ALLAH’S
    APOSTLE CAME, AISHA SAID:’I HAVE NOT
    SEEN ANY WOMAN SUFFERING AS MUCH AS
    BELIEVING WOMEN. LOOK! HER SKIN IS
    GREENER THAN HER CLOTHES’–”
    Muhammad did not address the violence but went on to declare that the woman’s two sons were fathered by her current husband whom the wife had accused of impotence. In Muslim 9(kitab al-talaq):3506, Muhammad was entertained by Umar and Abu Bakar who slapped their daughters on the neck not minding that they were somebody’s wives. All of them laughed as this went on. Earlier on Umar had reported how he did the same to Khadija’s daughter. The women were found guilty of asking Muhammad to give them what he did not have.
    In Bukahri 7:62:30 & 33 Muhammad called women ‘evil omen’ and ‘affliction to men’.
    Thses are the reasons Muhammad gave for marrying a woman and they have nothing to do with love.
    Bukhari 7:62:27 “THE PROPHET–SAID, ‘A WOMAN IS
    MARRIED FOR FOUR THINGS, i.e. HER
    WEALTH(which is fortune hunting), HER
    FAMILY STATUS, HER BEAUTY AND HER
    RELIGION–“.
    The Bible says in Ephesians 5
    :28 “SO OUGHT MEN TO LOVE THEIR WIVES AS
    THEIR OWN BODIES. HE THAT LOVETH HIS
    WIFE LOVETH HIMSELF.
    :29 “FOR NO MAN YET HATED HIS OWN FLESH;
    BUT NOURISHETH AND CHERISHETH IT,
    EVEN AS THE LORD THE CHURCH.
    :31 “FOR THIS CAUSE SHALL A MAN LEAVE
    HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER, AND SHALL
    BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THEY
    BE ONE FLESH.
    :33 “NEVERTHELESS LET EVERYONE OF YOU SO
    LOVE HIS WIFE EVEN AS HIMSELF; AND
    WIFE SEE THAT SHE REFERENCE HER
    HUSBAND”.
    Christianity does not countenance divorce. It never was God’s plan that a husband and wife shall not live together till death parts them. Adam and Eve were not divorced.
    1 Corinthians 7:11 “–AND THAT THE HUSBAND
    NOT DIVORCE HIS WIFE’.
    Matthew 19:9″–WHOSOEVER SHALL PUT AWAY HIS
    WIFE, EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION,
    AND SHALL MARRY ANOTHER,
    COMMITTETH ADULTERY: AND WHOSO
    MARRIETH HER WHICH IS PUT AWAY
    DOTH COMMIT ADULTERY”.
    Hebrews 13:4″MARRIAGE IS HONORABLE IN ALL, AND
    THE BED UNDEFILED; BUT WHOREMONGERS
    AND ADULTERERS GOD WILL JUDGE”.
    There is no special dispensation for a man, who is away from his wife, to engage in adultery branded
    ‘temporary marriage’ or mut’ah.
    You asked if I believe, as the Bible says, that the pains of childbirth is as a result of the original sin committed by Eve. My answer is ‘YES’ and I shall rely on your own texts.
    Sura 7:24 “GO HENCE, AND MAY YOUR DESCENDANTS BE
    ENEMIES TO EACH OTHER. THE EARTH WILL
    FOR A WHILE PROVIDE YOUR SUSTENANCE
    AND DWELLING PLACE. THERE YOU SHALL
    LIVE AND DIE–“.
    That is ample evidence that it was the fall of man through Adam that brought about humans dying. Nothing was said about death before the fall. Every human being is guilty and is punished with death as a result of Adam’s action. There are many references in your religion to women doing things or being punished because of Eve.
    Tabari 1:280 “BECAUSE ALLAH AFFLICTED EVE, ALL OF
    THE WOMEN OF THE WORLD NOW MENSTRUATE-“.
    A woman must menstruate first before being able to conceive. If menstruation is an affliction, what will the pangs of childbirth be? Is there any record to show that women gave birth without pains before Eve was ‘afflicted’?

    Reply

  27. Namelee, you intend mischief.
    Here is the translation of the verse 4:34 (35)
    which you have presented partially:

    [4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.
    ———————-
    Please note that the situation described in Arabic in this verse is described gently as “disobedience”. The Arabic word used in the verse is “Nushooz” which means arrogance, complete disobedience,opposing with disrespect and abuse or CONFRONTS the husband with abuse.
    If any wife would do that against her husband, what the husband has to do!
    That is also described. It is not to beat her. You have tried to be clever. You have omitted words before that. It says “admonish them”, “leave them alone in their beds”. These are gentle acts on the part of the husband. But you ignored them and went directly to the beating business. I said you mean mischief.
    The beating is not any severe beating. It is to give a disobedient wife a last chance lest she lose the comforts of a married life. The house needs harmony. A house where a wife is disobedient cannot stand. The life in that house will be hell for the husband.
    Then it is described that if the wife returns to normal life as non-abusive person, it is then told to the man that he should not seek a way against her, to hurt her.

    Then namelee, you have gathered a bundle of lies (useless hadith) which do not have much trust and value. I can show you your Hadith i.e. your bibleNT which is much inferior (in truth) to our Hadith. Your bible is a biography written by unknown persons and it is being presented to the world as word of God. God forbids that. There is no word of God in your bible. There may be some material, some teachings that were given to Jesus a.s. by God, in some words, now unknown and forgotten.

    The verse 7:24 translation:
    [7:25] He said, ‘Go forth, some of you being enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’
    —————-
    Before that there was description of the doings of the devil and repentance of Adam and Eve. God forgave them and then directed them to go forth from their previous state to another. Some will be good persons and some will be bad persons and there will be enmity between them…. what is wrong with that, namelee??? Is it not true. Europe has had two great World Wars.

    If any one will read the few verses before 7:35, will find clearly that the Quran has not blamed Eve (A lady) about eating the forbidden fruit and disobedience. This has saved the entire women kind from the curse of misleading her husband and committing the original sin as described and blamed on Eve in the Bible. Bible has blamed the lady of the original sin.

    namelee, you have written:
    [Nothing was said about death before the fall. Every human being is guilty and is punished with death as a result of Adam’s action.]

    Again you are misleading. Do you mean that there were no men and women before Adam? That there was no man dying in the world. Men have been here on earth for thousands of years before Adam, and they had been dying. According to your Bible history, Adam lived 6000 years ago. Please do not think that he was the first man and that there was no death before him. You have to learn and answer many things.

    Reply

  28. namelee, now i show you your divorce matters. See in your own words:
    [Matthew 19:9″–WHOSOEVER SHALL PUT AWAY HIS
    WIFE, EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION,
    AND SHALL MARRY ANOTHER,
    COMMITTETH ADULTERY: AND WHOSO
    MARRIETH HER WHICH IS PUT AWAY
    DOTH COMMIT ADULTERY”.]

    These are very good perfect wise words from Jesus a.s. I request you to see the word “EXCEPT” in those words. So there is an exception. Please do not argue on that matter with Muslims. You have lost the case against divorce.
    By deviating from the true teachings of Jesus a.s., in fact your religion i,e, Church had lost the case on the day the first Christian went to the court to seek divorce.

    Reply

  29. Ghulam Shawar,
    Reading your response gave me such a big laugh. It is more for circus entertainment than a factual presentation. I intend no mischief by giving you the raw facts.
    I lifted the relevant portions of sura 4:35 verbatim from page 58 of Mahmud Y. Zayid’s version of the quran. I have already pointed out that that version has the approval of the supreme sunni and shii councils of Lebanon. Having been interpreted and approved by those with the requisite knowledge of both Arabic and islam, the version commands the highest authority. The word used is ‘beat’ not ‘chastise’. Those who have read the Arabic quran say that the correct word used translates to ‘whip’. Even if we were to take your ‘chastise’, it still means to ‘punish, especially by beating’. So the meaning remains the same and you have lost the debate.
    As the quran authorizes the man to ‘chastise’ his ‘disobedient’ wife, what right does it give to the woman concerning her ‘disobedient’ husband? NONE. This is clear cut misogyny.
    My quotations came from the foremost hadiths which have been held as impeccable sources by your co-coreligionists. What competence do you have to pronounce them as ‘a bundle of lies’ or ‘useless hadiths’? It is better to rely on the judgment of those who are regarded as ‘scholars’ than to court your opinion. For that reason, your amendment of sura 7:25 is spurious.
    In sura 7:22 Adam and his wife said:”LORD, WE HAVE WRONGED OURSELVES”, not you. There is no pronouncement of pardon even though they had pleaded for it. If there was pardon, they would not have been sent elsewhere . They were simply asked to ‘go hence’. Their guilt and punishment continue to date.
    If you have any quranic evidence of other humans living and dying before Adam, please present it. There is no mention of anyone prior to the creation of Adam. Who created those other ones and who among them do you trace your origin to?
    Failure to give proof of human existence before Adam means that you are misleading and are being mischievous.

    Reply

  30. Namelee you forget a simple reality. If Adam and Eve are not the first human couple, it is a mere inconvenience for Islam. The Muslims have to just reinterpret some verses in new light.

    But, for Christianity it is a death blow, the final nail in the coffin, if you will, as then there is no Original Sin and no need for Jesus to die on the cross.

    There is a joke about cars. Once a Ford car was running and then it stopped and people wanted to examine its engine. But, when they lifted the hood, there was no engine and someone asked, how was it running. One person replied, it was running on “reputation.”

    Same is the case for Christianity. Since Sir Charles Darwin, it has lost all philosophical basis. It has become hollow. It is running only on 2000 years history and inertia in the minds of people. No wonder, half of Europe has become agnostic or atheist.

    Need I go on?

    Reply

  31. Ghulam Sarwar,
    You are struggling to justify adultery and divorce by muslims by clinging to the word ‘EXCEPT’ in Matthew 19:9. Adultery is the only ground that a man can justifiably seek divorce. Being an extreme case, no society, except those practicing polyandry, tolerates it. But the muslims have other reasons to divorce their wives. Some do so to ‘clean house’ by sending away the old wives and create room for new ones so that they may be within the allowable limit of four. All they have to do is to pronounce ‘I DIVORCE YOU’ three times. Others follow the four conditions given by Muhammad for marriage by going after women for their beauty, wealth or family status.
    Therefore, grounds for divorce in Christianity and Islam are not the same. A Christian who divorces his wife for anything other than adultery and marries another wife has committed adultery. God will judge him. Muhammad divorced Sawuda who did not commit adultery. For her to continue staying with him, she had to give up her turn of their sleeping together to Aisha. That is the genesis of the Muslim’s idea of marriage.

    Reply

    • According to my opinion Namelee’s way or argumentation is purposely hurtful. Besides being wrong many times he compares ‘the best of us with the worst of yours’. A silly way of making an argument. An example: ‘others follow the four conditions given by Muhammad (peace be on him) for marriage by going after women for their beauty, wealth or family status’. Are you really able to mis-read all quotations? Did you not read ‘… but the best is the spouses’ faith…’ (my wording)…

      Reply

  32. I changed your use of word “Muhammadanism” to Islam. Please if you do not change your stance, it will give me an easy excuse to censor your comment, whenever, I do not have time to do the editing for you.

    In this day and age you cannot use the word “Niger,” in USA, as it has long history of slavery. Likewise, the word you use has a long history of Islamophobia in the Christendom, of Crusades, murder and mayhem, so please stop using that.

    For divorce, let me suggest an article for your reading:

    Divorce: Islam Versus Christianity

    Reply

  33. Well, I thought Namelee would have some rationality in his thought. Unfortunately, he thinks that bringing out misinterpreted texts or misquoted or altogether false Ahadith can make his point. So first of all let me say again. QUR’AN gives women equal rights and treats them with respect. QUR’AN gives them rights as a human being, as a wife, as a mother, as a daughter, gives them rights in inheritance, protects them through all stages of their lives.
    But Namelee is not interested in that. He wants to display filth in his heart and is prepared to go to any length for this. So Mr. Namelee if you are an honest man let me show you the mirror. I hope you will melt in shame.
    Here are some quotes from the Bible and I have placed a number before each one of them. Please feel free to defend any one of them.
    1) It is good for a man not to touch a woman. (1Corinthians 7:1) Celibacy!
    2) Wives, SUBMIT yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18) Second to Man!
    3) Women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety, not with broided hair, or gold or pearls or costly array. (1Timothy 2:9)Hijab!
    4) Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. (1Timothy 2:11)No religious leadership
    5) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Timothy 2:12)
    6) The Bible convicts women as the original Sinners, (Genesis 2:4-3:24). The Koran clarifies it was Adam; not Eve (Qur’an 7:19-25).
    7) The Bible says “The birth of a daughter is a loss” (Ecclesiastics 22:3). The Qur’an says both are an Equal Blessing (Qur’an 42:49).
    8) The Bible forbids from speaking in Church (I Corinthians 14:34-35). The Qur’an reveals that women can argue with the Prophet (58:1).
    9) In the Bible, divorced women are labeled as an adulterous, while men are not (Matthew 5:31-32). The Koran does not have Biblical double standards (Qur’an 30:21).
    10) In the Bible, widows and sisters do not inherit any property or wealth; only men do (Numbers 27:1-11). The Quran abolished this male differentiation (Qur’an 4:22) and God protects All.
    11) The Bible allows multiple wives (I Kings 11:3). In the Quran, God limits the number to 4 only under certain situations (with the wife’s permission) and prefers you marry only one wife (Qur’an 4:3).
    12) The Quran gives woman the right to choose who to marry. Bible says “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives” (Deuteronomy 22:28-30). Who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the Bible, the woman has to spend the rest of her life with the man who raped her. The Prophet Muhammad Says: (Volume 9, Book 86, number 101) “It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage)”.
    Mr. Namelee, please note that all quotes are from the Bible. I have not quoted anything other than Bible.
    I am still waiting for you to address the following question, “Why the Holiest of the men in Christianity, Pope, does not marry? Is he following the Biblical instructions?
    You said in one of the above comments, that you are married. According to St. Paul, you are one of the weaklings. If you were Holy enough you would have remained celibate exactly like your Prophet, Paul.
    I hope you will realize that there is a difference in mud slinging and serious discussion. Above comment is some mud for you after you have been heaping mud on us. No hard feelings!!

    Reply

  34. Zia Shah,
    You said that if Adam and Eve were not the first couple, it would only be a mere inconvenience for the muslim who will have to reinterpret a few verses to get along. That is quite true, for like the ocean waves, Islam cannot lead to anything definite except …
    Christianity has no need for Darwin and he is one of those who do not cause me a sleepless second.
    Darwin propounded what is still a theory which may never become a law. I am told that he said that if there were no fossil evidence to link one evolutionary stage to the other, then his theory will not hold. On man’s ‘evolution’, there is still what is called the missing link. To get around this, darwinian ‘scientists’ have been manufacturing evidence. For 40 years that ‘scientific’ community believed in ‘big foot’ which was later found out to have been a hoax. The Christian community refused to be so fooled.
    More and more scientists are abandoning Darwin and it is only a matter of time before the muhammadns, in their usual inconsistency, do the same because it would have become more than ‘mere inconvenience’.
    Long before Darwin, the Holy Bible had recorded that there is a discipline called ‘science’. It says so in Daniel 1:4. Science is not new to the Christian but absurdity in the name of science is.
    One of the beauties of my religion is that it does not coerce anyone. There is absolute freedom of choice. The Lord said we should preach and invite people. He never asked us to apply force.

    …

    Reply

  35. Namelee your lack of objectivity and your wonderful ability to bury your head in sand, every time there is a difficult criticism of Christianity are amazing.

    If Adam and Eve as described in Genesis are not the first human couple then all of us are not their descendants and therefore all of us do not carry Original Sin.

    Once you begin to see any truth in the theory of Darwin and how it proposes common lineage between all life forms on our planet, you begin to see through the teachings of St. Paul, about vicarious atonement, Jesus’ dying for the Original Sin of all of us.

    So, the whole caricature of Christianity collapses under the microscope, as we examine evidence for Darwin. Let me suggest some additional readings to open minded readers of this thread:

    Darwinian Evolution: Islam or Christianity?

    I also like your style that if science is the issue and hard to defend then intertwine it with alleged violence in Islam. A useful way to create some camouflage.

    The Muslim Times is the place, where we will show the Muslims of the future the techniques of Christian apologists.

    Reply

  36. Hey Namelee. Why are you married? Are you one of the weaker ones in your Faith. Paul advised against marriage. He was not married and wanted all of you to do the same. According to him, “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” (1Corinthians 7:1)
    So when would you defend the phobia of women in your religion? I asked you to respond to my comment. Please give the verse, you are trying to defend. Be brave. I am sure there must be some explanation of fear of women in your religion.

    And yes, tell us why the Pope does not marry? Be a man, not a hooligan!

    Reply

  37. Lutf,
    I will skip responding to your ineffective poison and address the issues you raised for brevity sake.
    1. 1 Corinthians 7:1 is qualified by verse 2 which says that to avoid fornication everyone who cannot observe chastity, should marry. It has nothing to do with misogyny.
    2. Colossians 3;18. Verse 19 imposes a duty on the husband to love his wife unconditionally and not to be bitter against her.
    3. 1 Timothy 2:9 has nothing to do with hijab. The woman is not required to appear like a masquerade.
    4. 1 Timothy 2:11 Women learning in silence does not condemn them to sit at the rear or outside the church as muslim women are required to do in the mosque.
    5. Genesis 2:1 is on the creation of the heavens and the earth. It says nothing about Eve.
    6. Genesis 3:23-24″THEREFORE THE LORD SENT HIM(ADAM) FORTH FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN, TO TILL THE GROUND FROM WHENCE HE WAS TAKEN. SO HE DROVE OUT THE MAN”. The verse talks about Adam being punished not Eve. God still showed compassion by asking him to till the land for a living instead of starving to death.
    Sura 7:19-25 “HE SAID: ‘GO HENCE, AND MAY YOUR DESCENDANTS BE ENEMIES TO EACH OTHER. THE EARTH WILL FOR A WHILE PROVIDE YOUR SUSTENANCE AND DWELLING PLACE”. The quran does not say how Adam was to survive after that ‘while’ had expired. Nothing is said about Eve because, as far as allah is concerned, she did not exist as a being. She was only Adam’s appendage. The Bible recognizes her separate existence.
    7. 1 Timothy 2:12 Women are not to usurp the functions of men but to keep to their assigned functions. This still recognizes that women have intelligence and can function in the roles of men. In the quran, women are incapable of looking after their own affairs. To manage those of others is way above them. Sura 2:282 makes a woman half of a man. Two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.
    8.Ecclesiastes has only 12 chapters. There is no 22:3.
    9. 2 Corinthians 6:8 “AND WILL BE A FATHER UNTO YOU, AND YE SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, SAITH THE LORD GOD”. God has equal consideration for all HIS children regardless of gender. This is also proved in the following verses.
    Acts 2:17 “YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY”.
    Joel 2:18 “YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY”.
    Allah refused to have children because it was ascribed with daughters as these verses demonstrate.
    Sura 43;15 “–WOULD ALLAH CHOOSE DAUGHTERS FROM THOSE HE HAS CREATED FOR HIMSELF AND CHOOSE SONS FOR YOU–WOULD THEY ASCRIBE TO ALLAH FEMALES WHO ADORN THEMSELVES WITH TRINKETS AND ARE POWERLESS IN DISPUTATION?
    :19 “THEY REGARD AS FEMALES THE ANGELS WHO ARE ALLAH’S SERVANTS. DID THEY WITNESS THEIR CREATION?”
    Here allah rejects being served by female aids.
    Sura 58:1 “ALLAH HAS HEARD THE WORDS OF HER WHO PLEADED WITH YOU CONCERNING HER HUSBAND”. It says nothing about arguing with the ‘prophet’.
    It is reported that Muhammad did not touch the hand of any woman who was not his wife, concubine or close relative. The Lord Jesus was touched by every one including a woman who had been infirmed with the issue of blood for years.
    One of the women who played prominent roles in the Bible was Deborah as shown below.
    Judges 4:4 “DEBORAH, A PROPHETESS, THE WIFE OF LAPIDOTH, SHE JUDGED ISRAEL AT THAT TIME”. That was an unprecedented height no woman can ever dream of attaining in traditional muhammadanism.
    9. Both men and women who are divorced are guilty of adultery if they remarry. It is not only the woman. In islam, a woman who wants to divorce her husband is required to forfeit her ‘khole’ which means giving up any alimony and dowry. With that and little or no inheritance she is ridiculed and becomes a beggar, especially if she does not work.
    10. The equality women have in inheritance is seen in these verses.
    Numbers 27:6 “AND THE LORD SPAKE TO MOSES, SAYING,
    :7 “THE DAUGHTERS OF ZELOPHEHAD SPEAK RIGHT; THOU SHALT SURELY GIVE THEM A POSSESSION OF AN INHERITANCE AMONG THEIR FATHER’S BRETHREN; AND THOU SHALT CAUSE THE INHERITANCE OF THEIR FATHER(100%) TO PASS TO THEM”.
    In islam, such children get only a fraction of their father’s estate. An only daughter gets just 33.33% while in the Bible she is entitled to the full estate with nothing missing. WHO IS JUST?
    11. The Christian has nothing to do with polygamy. He is the husband of only one wife. In muhammadanism, the man marries four, sends some away to make room for new ones and, of course, keeps an uncountable number of those his ‘right hand possesses’.
    12. Deuteronomy 22:28 does justice to the rape victim who, otherwise, could be ostracized. By marrying her the rapist takes responsibility for his stupidity. In islam, she would be the one to be killed for having had illegal sexual intercourse. That was the fate of the Nigerian woman, Amina Mohammed, who was spared the rajam justice by the outcry from the international community.
    After a girl is raped, she is no longer a virgin. It will interest a reasonable man to know what a 6 year old girl understands about consent to marry.
    I had answered the question about the Pope not marrying but your partisan site administrator felt he had to delete it. The Pope needs to devote all his time to pastoral work without having to worry about family matters. It is a sacrifice one makes to serve his God. Muhammad knew how difficult it was to deal with his rancorous wives so much so that he said that he had not left man any affliction greater than a woman.
    St Paul was not a prophet. He was an apostle. Having not married did not deprive him the capability of advising on marriage and church work. He encouraged those who could not maintain chastity to marry. Marriage became a condition for holding a position in the church. Married people are only weaklings in muhammadanism, not in Christianity.
    At last, you have stated the clear intention of TMT to be mud slinging of Christianity. Zia Shah has confirmed and demonstrated that. HOW VERY DESPICABLE.

    Reply

  38. Lutf,
    I was responding to your penultimate post when you sent in the last one. I hope you have seen it.
    You have not addressed why a woman cannot serve as an imam leading a mixed congregation.
    Is that the shape of Islamic gender equality?

    Reply

  39. Zia Shah,
    You are the quintessential will-o’-the-wisp. You refuse to post my comments, yet claim that I am “LACKING OBJECTIVITY” WITH “A WONDERFUL ABILITY TO BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND, EVERY TIME THERE IS A DIFFICULT CRITICISM OF CHRISTIANITY”.
    If you really believe that baseless misrepresentation, then post all my comments unedited.
    I am still awaiting your evidence from the quran that Adam and Eve were not the first couple.
    …

    Reply

  40. Namelee you have missed a simple point. I am not trying to argue that Adam and Eve of Genesis were not the first human couple, from the Holy Quran, rather I am showing it from science.

    The Holy Quran is literal word of God and fully preserved and we interpret it in light of laws of nature. The same cannot be said about the Bible.

    Please come forward more openly and say that if science be true that Adam and Eve are not the first human couple, Christianity is wrong and loses all its philosophical basis.

    I promise to teach theory of evolution to open minded readers. Let us start with a video.

    Intelligent Design on Trial: a Documentary

    In this two-hour special, NOVA captures the turmoil that tore apart the community of Dover, Pennsylvania in one of the latest battles over teaching evolution in public schools. Featuring trial reenactments based on court transcripts and interviews with key participants, including expert scientists and Dover parents, teachers, and town officials, “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial” follows the celebrated federal case of Kitzmiller v. Dover School District. This program was coproduced with Paul G. Allen’s Vulcan Productions, Inc.

    In 2004, the Dover school board ordered science teachers to read a statement to high school biology students suggesting that there is an alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution called intelligent design–the idea that life is too complex to have evolved naturally and therefore must have been designed by an intelligent agent. The teachers refused to comply. Later, parents opposed to intelligent design filed a lawsuit in federal court accusing the school board of violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

    “There was a blow-up like you couldn’t believe,” Bill Buckingham, head of the school board’s curriculum committee, tells NOVA. Buckingham helped formulate the intelligent-design policy when he noticed that the biology textbook chosen by teachers for classroom use was, in his words, “laced with Darwinism.”
    NOVA presents the arguments by lawyers and expert witnesses in riveting detail and provides an eye-opening crash course on questions such as “What is evolution?” and “Is intelligent design a scientifically valid alternative?” Kitzmiller v. Dover was the first legal test of intelligent design as a scientific theory, with the plaintiffs arguing that it is a thinly veiled form of creationism, the view that a literal interpretation of the Bible accounts for all observed facts about nature.
    During the trial, lawyers for the plaintiffs showed that evolution is one of the best-tested and most thoroughly confirmed theories in the history of science, and that its unresolved questions are normal research problems–the type that arise in any flourishing scientific field.

    To watch the documentary click here

    Reply

  41. namelee, you have admitted your failures and faults, by replying to the post of Lutf. You have admitted the faults (defects) in bible by giving reference to other verses to negate the affect of the bad verses.
    That is not a way to get out of trouble.

    The verses mentioned by Lutf still stand and you need to comment and explain them, please.
    In Mathew, Jesus a.s. was teaching..”If a son wants an egg, will his father give him a stone?” “if a son wants a fish, will his father give him a snake?” The obvious answer is “No”.
    Then look at the treatment, you people, namelee, are dishing out to your Jesus about his prayer, in the garden to avoid the cup. He wanted to avoid the cup. He told to and prayed to his father.

    Jesus prayed to Father (i.e. God) to avoid the cup. And Father killed him on the cross. Which was not wanted by Jesus. Did not you people (Christians) forget the teachings of Jesus that no father will do such a thing to his son?
    You have left Jesus and picked up teachings of Paul. Please come back to Jesus a.s. Thanks. We Muslims will have no differences and no objections to your beliefs.

    Reply

  42. Ghulam Sarwar,
    … You keep jumping from one topic to the other without concluding the previous one. The current topic is gender equality but you have suddenly jumped to Jesus not wanting ‘a cup’ and a father not giving his son stone in place of bread. If you have nothing further to say on the current topic, please say so then we can move on to the next one. There has to be a systematic way of doing things instead of the Muslim’s hap hazard method.
    Jesus copiously said that HE willingly gave his life to save HIS flock and that without such voluntary position, no power would have been able to touch HIM. Like the good shepherd, HE gave HIMSELF to be crucified on the cross and rose from the dead on the third day. That is the assurance of the everlasting comfort of the holy scripture.
    As always, I refuted every single issue Lutf tried to raise and went further to prove with relevant verses from the Bible and the Quran that there is gender equality in Christianity which is something lacking in Islam. Is there an equivalent in the Quran to a woman like Deborah who was a prophetess, judge and army commander? She had authority over men. So what are you talking about?

    Reply

    • Namelee: The article itself gives you sufficient information Islam’s view on gender equality: quote

      “But whoso does good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such shall enter Heaven, and shall not be wronged even as much as the little hollow in the back of a date-stone.” (Al Qur’an 4:125)

      unquote.

      There is equality in ‘value’ but there never can be equality in function. Gender equality in Christianity? You must be joking. The Muslim ladies had property rights for the past 1400 years. How long do Europeans have equal property rights? When I got married according to European law the control of the ‘joint property’ automatically came over to me. Please do not go on and on about it, at least not until you have a female pope.

      Reply

  43. Christian apologists also have another useful habit, which serves them well, when they are the moderators: Ignore the strong arguments of Islam and focus on the frivolous and do the reverse in favor of Christianity.

    Namelee is perfect in this regards.

    So, I just need to repeat one of my comments above as he has conveniently ignored it and marched on:

    Namelee you have missed a simple point. I am not trying to argue that Adam and Eve of Genesis were not the first human couple, from the Holy Quran, rather I am showing it from science.

    The Holy Quran is literal word of God and fully preserved and we interpret it in light of laws of nature. The same cannot be said about the Bible.

    Please come forward more openly and say that if science be true that Adam and Eve are not the first human couple, Christianity is wrong and loses all its philosophical basis.

    I promise to teach theory of evolution to open minded readers. Let us start with a video.

    Intelligent Design on Trial: a Documentary

    In this two-hour special, NOVA captures the turmoil that tore apart the community of Dover, Pennsylvania in one of the latest battles over teaching evolution in public schools. Featuring trial reenactments based on court transcripts and interviews with key participants, including expert scientists and Dover parents, teachers, and town officials, “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial” follows the celebrated federal case of Kitzmiller v. Dover School District. This program was coproduced with Paul G. Allen’s Vulcan Productions, Inc.

    In 2004, the Dover school board ordered science teachers to read a statement to high school biology students suggesting that there is an alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution called intelligent design–the idea that life is too complex to have evolved naturally and therefore must have been designed by an intelligent agent. The teachers refused to comply. Later, parents opposed to intelligent design filed a lawsuit in federal court accusing the school board of violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

    “There was a blow-up like you couldn’t believe,” Bill Buckingham, head of the school board’s curriculum committee, tells NOVA. Buckingham helped formulate the intelligent-design policy when he noticed that the biology textbook chosen by teachers for classroom use was, in his words, “laced with Darwinism.”
    NOVA presents the arguments by lawyers and expert witnesses in riveting detail and provides an eye-opening crash course on questions such as “What is evolution?” and “Is intelligent design a scientifically valid alternative?” Kitzmiller v. Dover was the first legal test of intelligent design as a scientific theory, with the plaintiffs arguing that it is a thinly veiled form of creationism, the view that a literal interpretation of the Bible accounts for all observed facts about nature.
    During the trial, lawyers for the plaintiffs showed that evolution is one of the best-tested and most thoroughly confirmed theories in the history of science, and that its unresolved questions are normal research problems–the type that arise in any flourishing scientific field.

    To watch the documentary click here

    Reply

  44. Rafiq,
    We will continue the discussion the day there is a female imam taking charge of both men and women. Until then the fact still remains that the idea of gender equality is completely alien to Islam.

    Reply

    • Namelee: Female Imam? I assume that you know how Muslims pray. Do you really feel it appropriate that I should pray behind a female Imam? This argument is – in my language: ” an den Haaren herbei gezogen ” ( … pulled by the hair … not directly translatable , but I suppose you get my meaning…)

      Reply

  45. Zia Shah,
    In your eagerness to claim cheap victory, you mistook my not replying early to mean running away. You have forgotten that sometimes you do not reply to my posts in time. It was rather preposterous of you to have come to such a hasty conclusion.
    None of you has presented anything that can be called a ‘strong argument’ since I joined this debate. All you do is to call names, threaten censorship and deny quranic and hadith verses. Your position cannot be otherwise because muhammadanism has no solid foundation. But when it comes to noise making, you have a perfect record.
    I did not reply to your previous comment. So there can be no justification to announce with a loud voice that I ignored some points.
    Let one thing be made clear. When the quran teaches that Adam and ‘his wife’ were the first couple and you claim to be arguing from the perspective of science, are you supporting or contradicting the quran because at the moment there is no shred of evidence that another couple existed? You are only hoping that such evidence will emerge that you can use to rubbish the Bible. Thereafter you can then adjust the verses of the quran to fit in to the new reality and such action will only be ‘a mere inconvenience’.
    …

    Reply

  46. Namelee

    Thank you for a long speech, but, you are beating around the bush.

    Either Adam and Eve as described in Genesis, who lived about 6000 years ago and as understood by St. Paul and Christians for the last 2000 years, were the first human couple or they were not.

    Either the understanding of biology that humans have existed for more than 100,000 years is true and correct or Christianity.

    There are no two ways about it. It is black and white. These issues are fundamental to biology and Christianity. Both cannot be true or reinterpreted with any degree of intellectual honesty.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

    Let me share some information with you about Neanderthals from Wikipedia:

    The Neanderthals or Neandertals are an extinct species of human in the genus Homo, possibly a subspecies of Homo sapiens.[2] They are closely related to modern humans,[3][4] differing in DNA by only 0.3%, just twice the variability across contemporary humans.[5] Remains left by Neanderthals include bones and stone tools, which are found from western Europe to central Asia. The species is named after Neandertal (“Neander Valley”), the location in Germany where it was first discovered.
    Neanderthals are classified either as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species of the same genus (Homo neanderthalensis).[6] The first humans with proto-Neanderthal traits are believed to have existed in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago.[7]
    The exact date of their extinction is disputed. Fossils found in the Vindija Cave in Croatia have been dated to between 33,000 and 32,000 years old, and Neanderthal artifacts from Gorham’s Cave in Gibraltar are believed to be less than 30,000 years old, but a recent study has redated fossils at two Spanish sites as 45,000 years old, 10,000 years older than previously thought, and may cast doubt on recent datings of other sites. Cro-Magnon (early-modern-human) skeletal remains showing some “Neanderthal traits” have been found in Lagar Velho (Portugal) and dated to 24,500 years ago, suggesting that there may have been an extensive admixture of the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal populations in that region.[8]
    Several cultural assemblages have been linked to the Neanderthals in Europe. The earliest, the Mousterian stone tool culture, dates to about 300,000 years ago.[9] Late Mousterian artifacts were found in Gorham’s Cave on the south-facing coast of Gibraltar.[10][11] Other tool cultures associated with the Neanderthals include the Châtelperronian, the Aurignacian, and the Gravettian; their tool assemblages appear to have developed gradually within their populations, rather than being introduced by new population groups arriving in the region.[12]
    With an average cranial capacity of 1600cc [13] Neanderthal’s cranial capacity is known to be notably larger than all races of modern humans on average, indicating that their brain size was at least as large, if not larger. In 2008, a group of scientists produced a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study indicated that Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain.[14] They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands.[15] Males stood 164–168 cm (65–66 in) and females about 152–156 cm (60–61 in) tall.[16]
    Genetic evidence published in 2010 suggests that Neanderthals contributed to the DNA of anatomically modern humans, probably through interbreeding between 80,000 and 50,000 years ago with the population of anatomically modern humans who had recently migrated from Africa. According to the study, by the time that population began dispersing across Eurasia, Neanderthals genes constituted as much as 1–4% of its genome (roughly equivalent to having one Neanderthal great-great-great-grandparent).[17][18][19] Ötzi the iceman, Europe’s oldest preserved mummy, was found to possess an even higher percentage of Neanderthal ancestry.[20]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

    Unlike Christianity, Adam and Eve being the first human couple is not one of the fundamentals beliefs of Islam, last time I checked.

    Reply

  47. Responding to one of my comments, Namelee got very upset. Instead of Islam he has started using “Muhammadinism”. So first of all I am a Muslim. Muhammad was a Prophet of God and a mercy for mankind. It is interesting to see that Namelee has rationalized the negativity of Paul’s teachings. In Paul’s Christianity (an oxymoron, Paul had nothing to do with Christ and Christ had nothing to do with Paul)those who cannot avoid adultery should marry. The good ones and those who have the moral strength to avoid adultery should avoid women and not marry. Namelee, can you see how you are blinded to your own problems.
    You have also rationalized marrying a rapist with his victim. According to you marrying her rapist is somehow good for the poor girl. Really!! If your daughter was raped, instead of punishing the criminal you would rather have your daughter marry that loser!!
    As for inheritance, Muslim women have been receiving inheritance since the time of the Prophet Muhammad. In the Christian world, however, the right of women to own property is only recent. (around 100 years ago)
    Of course right to divorce still is not universal for Christian women.
    I also noticed a pile of lies in your reply, Mr. Namelee. In Islam women have been awarded alimony, child support and other financial support as needed no matter who initiates the divorce. (So you are lying when you make other assertions)
    Also the Quran does not punish woman if she is raped. (Another one of your lies)
    Why you get upset when I point to the book of Paul (New Testament) and showing you the mirror. In your rabid comments, and constant lies at least I am not quoting anything out of context or lying.
    Quran talks about people like you. “They are deaf, dumb and blind. So they will never return to the truth.”
    Mr. Namelee, I have no interest in engaging with someone who seems to be a passionate liar. (You)
    I can only pray for you that God may show the right path and give you the moral courage and strength to stop lying and see the truth.

    Reply

  48. If namelee will not call our religion as Islam then namelee should be satisfied with the title of his religion as Pauliniaty, as it is all depending on Paul? namelee religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
    WE Muslims believe that there is One God, same as the Jews, not three gods. The religion of all men of God (including Jesus a.s.) is Islam. That means peace. The religion of Jesus was the same as that of Moses a.s. and Muhammad s.a.w.s. Jesus a.s. was a prophet, sub-ordinate to Moses a.s. i.e. a true follower of the law of Moses a.s. Quo Vadis Paulists? (Whither goes thou, namelee?)

    Reply

  49. Zia Shah sahib, JezakAllah for your excellent defense of Islam. If it helps, I would like to point out that the words in the opening verses of Surah Nisa are that from a single entity was created its mate. However, ‘its’ is actually ‘her’ as evident by the feminine gender Arabic word ‘minha’.

    So the Quran actually says that from a female, its male mate was created. And, surprise surprise, that is what science tells us that during evolution, a single being was capable of producing young. When life developed further, and bisexual reproduction was to be introduced, from that being a male entity was separated. This was discussed in detail in David Attenbrough in his latest series of programmes.

    So how can the Bible ever hope to match the complexity and depth of comprehension of the Holy Quran?

    Apart from Namlee, anyone else would admit that the Quran is the Word of the same Creator who created the whole of creation and who knows its innermost secrets

    Reply

  50. Rafiq,
    No I do not get what you mean. What is degrading about praying behind a female imam? As a matter of fact, your latest position goes to confirm the male chauvinistic nature of Islam. I hope you get the message loud and clear.

    Reply

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