Film at 9/11 Museum Sets Off Clash Over Reference to Islam
Past the towering tridents that survived the World Trade Center collapse, adjacent to a gallery with photographs of the 19 hijackers, a brief film at the soon-to-open National September 11 Memorial Museum will seek to explain to visitors the historical roots of the attacks.
The film, “The Rise of Al Qaeda,” refers to the terrorists as Islamists who viewed their mission as a jihad. The NBC News anchor Brian Williams, who narrates the film, speaks over images of terrorist training camps and Qaeda attacks spanning decades. Interspersed are explanations of the ideology of the terrorists, from video clips in foreign-accented English translations.
The documentary is not even seven minutes long, the exhibit just a small part of the museum. But it has over the last few weeks suddenly become a flash point in what has long been one of the most highly charged issues at the museum: how it should talk about Islam and Muslims.
With the museum opening on May 21, it has shown the film to several groups, including an interfaith advisory group of clergy members. Those on the panel overwhelmingly took strong exception to the film, believing some of the terminology in it casts aspersions on all Muslims, and requested changes. But the museum has declined. In March, the sole imam in the group resigned to make clear that he could not endorse its contents.
“The screening of this film in its present state would greatly offend our local Muslim believers as well as any foreign Muslim visitor to the museum,” Sheikh Mostafa Elazabawy, the imam of Masjid Manhattan, wrote in a letter to the museum’s director. “Unsophisticated visitors who do not understand the difference between Al Qaeda and Muslims may come away with a prejudiced view of Islam, leading to antagonism and even confrontation toward Muslim believers near the site.”
Museum officials are standing by the film, which they say was vetted by several scholars of Islam and of terrorism. A museum spokesman and panel members described the contents of the film, which was not made available to The New York Times for viewing.
“From the very beginning, we had a very heavy responsibility to be true to the facts, to be objective, and in no way smear an entire religion when we are talking about a terrorist group,” said Joseph C. Daniels, president and chief executive of the nonprofit foundation that oversees the memorial and museum.
But the disagreement has been ricocheting through scholarly circles in recent weeks. At issue is whether it is inflammatory for the museum to use terms like “Islamist” and “jihad” in conjunction with the Sept. 11 attack, without making clear that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. The panel has urged the use of more specific language, such as “Al Qaeda-inspired terrorism” and doing more to explain the meaning of jihad.
The terms “Islamist” and “jihadist” are often used to describe extremist Muslim ideologies. But the problem with using such language in a museum designed to instruct people for generations is that most visitors are “simply going to say Islamist means Muslims, jihadist means Muslims,” said Akbar Ahmed, the chairman of the Islamic studies department at American University in Washington.
“The terrorists need to be condemned and remembered for what they did,” Dr. Ahmed said. “But when you associate their religion with what they did, then you are automatically including, by association, one and a half billion people who had nothing to do with these actions and who ultimately the U.S. would not want to unnecessarily alienate.”
Question of how to represent Islam in the museum has long been fraught. It was among the first issues that came up when the museum began asking for advice in about 2005 from a panel of mostly Lower Manhattan clergy members who had been involved in recovery work after the attacks.
Peter B. Gudaitis, who brought the group together as the chief executive of New York Disaster Interfaith Services, said the museum had rejected certain Islam-related suggestions from the panel, such as telling the story of Mohammad Salman Hamdani, a Muslim cadet with the New York Police Department who died in the attack and was initially suspected as a perpetrator.
There was wide agreement, however, that the exhibit space should make clear that Muslims were not just perpetrators, but also among the attack’s victims, mourners and recovery workers — an integral part of the fabric of American life.
A year ago, concerns about how the film might be viewed by Muslims were raised at a screening by a select group of Sept. 11 family members, law enforcement officials and others. As a result, several months ago, museum officials invited the interfaith group to view the film and tour the still unfinished exhibits.
The panel was pleased to see photographs of mourning Muslims included in photo montages. The museum also includes stories of Muslim victims and the reflections of Representative Keith Ellison, Democrat of Minnesota, the first Muslim elected to Congress, on the effects of the attacks on America, the museum said.
But then the group members screened the Qaeda film and grew alarmed at what they felt was an inflammatory tone and use of the words “jihad” and “Islamist” without, they felt, sufficient explanation.
“As soon as it was over, everyone was just like, wow, you guys have got to be kidding me,” Mr. Gudaitis said.
He and another member of the panel, the Rev. Chloe Breyer, executive director of the Interfaith Center of New York, began to organize a response. On Monday, they sent the museum’s directors a formal letter on behalf of the 11 members of the interfaith group who had seen the film, asking for edits. Their concern was heightened by the personal experience many on them have had with anti-Muslim sentiment, including the national uproar over the construction of a mosque and Muslim community center a few blocks from ground zero.
The response from the museum was immediate, though accidental: Clifford Chanin, the education director, inadvertently sent the group an email intended solely for the museum’s senior directors, indicating he was not overly concerned.
“I don’t see this as difficult to respond to, if any response is even needed,” he wrote.
The museum did remove the term “Islamic terrorism” from its website earlier this month, after another activist, Todd Fine, collected about 100 signatures of academics and scholars supporting its deletion.
In interviews, several leading scholars of Islam said that the term “Islamic terrorist” was broadly rejected as unfairly conflating Islam and terrorism, but the terms Islamist and jihadist can be used, in the proper context, to refer to Al Qaeda, preferably with additional qualifiers, like “radical,” or “militant.”
But for Mr. Elazabawy, and many other Muslims, the words “Islamic” and “Islamist” are equally inappropriate to apply to Al Qaeda, and the word “jihad” refers to a positive struggle against evil, the opposite of how they view the terrorist attacks.
“Don’t tell me this is an Islamist or an Islamic group; that means they are part of us,” he said in an interview. “We are all of us against that.”
For his part, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Near Eastern studies at Princeton University, defended the film, whose script he vetted.
“The critics who are going to say, ‘Let’s not talk about it as an Islamic or Islamist movement,’ could end up not telling the story at all, or diluting it so much that you wonder where Al Qaeda comes from,” Dr. Haykel said.
Michael Frazier, a museum spokesman, said the film would be shown in a gallery that also had two large interpretive panels illustrating how Al Qaeda was portrayed as “a far fringe of Islam.” Museum officials emphasized that Mr. Chanin and the rest of the museum took the concerns very seriously.
“What helps me sleep at night is I believe that the average visitor who comes through this museum will in no way leave this museum with the belief that the religion of Islam is responsible for what happened on 9/11,” said Mr. Daniels, the president of the museum foundation. “We have gone out of the way to tell the truth.”
Categories: Americas, United States
Please do not delete my respond to this Topic.May Allah bless us all.Ameen.
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DUE TO MISINTERPRETATION AND BELIEVE IN IDOLS.
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I am one of those who are motivated to re-learn secrets contained in the Qur’an and the Bible after the barbaric terrorist attacks in New York Tower 11/9 2001 done by the hands of my fellow Muslims ( Al Qaida ) everywhere on this globe, and after the too many violent acts by Islamists in many parts of the world, I feel responsible as a Muslim and as a human being to speak out and tell the truth to protect the world and Muslims as well from a coming catastrophe and war of civilizations.
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I strongly do not believe that Islam teaches to kill the civil people, children, women etc.
I strongly do not believe that Islam teaches hatred based on religion, gay-lesbian, ethnic etc.
I strongly do not believe that Islam teaches to beating women and stoning women to death for adultery.
I strongly do not believe that Islam teaches to kill apostate.
I strongly do not believe that Islam teaches to ban and kill Muslim Syiah, Ahmadiyah, Christian and Muslim Secular-democracy.
I strongly do not believe on system Syariat Islam dictator, sadistic, and discrimination, like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Taliban.
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I have to admit that our current Islamic teaching from old interpretation, creates violence and hatred toward non-Muslims( Christian ) and Muslim syiah, Ahmadiyah. We Muslims are the ones who need to change or reform. It is a Muslim problem that needs a Muslim solution .
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I want to speak out against violence and human right, and women’s right abuses in the name of ALLAH, in the name of Islam and fight for liberty and freedom, justice for all, through the separation of mosque and state.
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HUMAN RIGHT
Defending Human Rights means to enforce order of Allah to defend the weak,the oppressed people because of different faith,religion,skin color, ethnic,gender,life-style, and nation. Human Right ensuring Justice for all and path to peace.
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First, I found that the root of the barbaric terrorist attacks in New York Tower 11/9 2001 done by the hands of my fellow Muslims ( Al Qaida ) everywhere on this globe till now is from the book of Hadits that created by human, not by God.
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Such as;
1. HERESY AND APOSTASY
Anyone of you who saw heresy, apostasy, let is changing with your HANDS (kill), if not able, let the verbal, if not able to let the heart. However, such is weak as weak faith.HR.Muslim
2. HOMOSEXUAL
Prophet said, “If you have people who do act like the people of Lut (liwath) then kill the perpetrators.” (Narrated by Abu Daud, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).
3. HONOR KILLING
Anyone who changes his religion (out of Islam, apostasy) then kill. Wherever you meet them, then kill them. Because real people are killed they will get a reward at the Judgment Day “Bukhari.
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Extremist Muslim believe strongly to punish and kill HERESY AND APOSTASY is commanded by prophet Muhammad(saw) and Allah (swt). Actually, extremist Muslim follows idols (Muslim-Bukahri), instead of commandment of God.
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As long as Muslim-Scholar still believe in idols ( the book of Hadits) this klling will not end for ever. Except if Muslim-Scholars dare to abrogate all kind of violent Hadits. This is the main key how to correct the ugly image Islam that we see now.
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The second, I found that the root of killing infidel, blasphemy, apostasy,Gay-Lesbian,Muslim Shia and Ahmadiyah is from the verses of Allah in Al Quran. Extremist Muslim misguide people with false interpretation of verses.
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Such as;
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1. Then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush.QS 9;5
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2. Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Extremist Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. QS 9;29.
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Allah also sent some verses as warning or guidance for His messenger how to defend himself from enemy who wanted to kill Prophet Muhammad(saw).
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These verses can not be applied any more, since Prophet Muhammad (saw) had died, and also there is no religious war in 21st century.. These verses in chapter 9 was a specific historical event are abrogated or are invalid.
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alatif, none of the verses of the Holy Quran are abrogated.
If you abrogate a few and I abrogate a few and every student of the Holy Quran abrogates a few the Divine Scripture will become a joke.
It is a sacred book from the All Knowing, only because it is always valid.
Allah says in the Holy Quran:
But, it is true that each verse of the Holy Quran should be interpreted, in the context of the Sura, the whole Quran, the context of the time of revelation and our present day Global Village.
When read in this way every verse of the Holy Quran becomes a treasure trove of wisdom and enlightenment.
@ Zia Shah..quote; But, it is true that each verse of the Holy Quran should be interpreted, in the context of the Sura, the whole Quran, the context of the time of revelation and our present day Global Village. unquote—–
Yes, I agree with you,
What I mean is that each verse of Holy Quran should be interpreted in the context of the time of revelation—-
Therefore, those verses above, sent down to prophet when enemy wanted to kill prophet in DARK-AGE..primitive time. right?
These verses can not be applied any more, since Prophet Muhammad (saw) had died, and also there is no religious war in 21st century.. These verses in chapter 9 was a specific historical event are abrogated or are invalid.
So Muslim can not implement these verses any more.
Do not you agree that?
If you do not agree that, you still believe Muslim can kill innocent people, blasphemy, infidel, gay-lesbian etc.
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I agree with almost all of what you have said in the last comment.
No innocent person should be killed, as every human life is sacred and of infinite value. (Al Quran 5:33)
Additionally, I want say that no innocent person was killed, during the defensive wars of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. At least none with his explicit or implicit consent.
The verses pertaining to religious wars, especially those in Sura Tauba are not relevant in the present context, of course not.
But, please also remember that human civilization is not constant, humans do have the vulnerability of pushing themselves into Dark Ages of one kind or another, every so often.
So, please, do not rush to abrogate any verse, before the Day of Judgment.
@ Zia Shah…quote; So, please, do not rush to abrogate any verse, before the Day of Judgment.unquote—
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Zia Shah,,if not now, when?
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=alatif=
*N E V E R*
Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:10)
Alatif, in another thread presented 10 (actually nine verses ) that alatif considered bad or harsh. I replied to all verses of the Quran. It is surprising that alatif is recommending wholesale abrogation of Hadith, Bukhari and Muslim, now alatif has embarked on the mission of abrogating the verses of the Quran. I did not see any comments on alatif objection on 10 verses of Quran.
I request alatif to consider slowing down on the abrogation matters.
Love for all, and hatred none for all, means accept the different thought, idea, race, gender and different interpretation. The fact is that some my respond was deleted. Please do not delete it, even you do not like to read it,Thanks.
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THESE ARE SOME WARNING FROM GOD;WISDOM FROM THE BOOK OF WISDOM.
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Anyone who loves knowledge want to be told,when he is wrong.It is stupid to hate being corrected,Proverb.
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1. Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves . QS .13:11.
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2.Intelligent people want to learn,but stupid people are satisfied with ignorance.Proverb 15;14
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3.Violent scholars deceive their friend and lead them to disaster.Proverb.
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4.Violent people look for ways to harm other; event their word burn with evil.Proverb.
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5.Wise man want to learn more, but stupid against to learn.Proverb.
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6. Stupid people always think they are right,
But Wise people listen to advice.Proverb
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7. A wise man pays attention when his father or teacher correct him, but stupid or wicked people never admit he is wrong.Proverb.
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8. It is fool to enjoy doing wrong.Intelligent people take pleasure in wisdom.Proverb
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9.If you accompany with wise man, you will be a wise, but if you make friend with wicked man or stupid people,you will be ruined.Proverb
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10. A stupid or wicked people will glad if his enemy get hurt, but a wise man will be sad and pray to God.Proverb
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11.A stupid or wicked people like to talk harsh, but a wise man like to talk wisely,proverb
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HOW TO DEFINE MUSLIM SCHOLARS?
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A TREE AND ITS FRUIT.
To have a good fruit you must have a healthy tree.
If you have a bad tree, you will have a bad fruit.
A tree has known by the kind of fruit it bears.Matthew, 12: 33.
May Allah guide us all to the right path of Islamic teaching,and to follow His laws completely;
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“If you do love Allah, follow ME (completely): Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” QS 3:31.
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With all my love.
What ever we do, be done with love of God (Cor.16:13).
If we love each other, we can achieve a big works for mankind
but if we hate each other, will be destroyed completely, because hate stir up trouble and conflict.
So let we love each other, Allah will bless us all
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Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2014/04/countries/united-states/new-york-film-at-911-museum-sets-off-clash-over-reference-to-islam#ixzz3006urMMV
“alatif”- It is OK if you have some opinion(s) of your own.
IT IS NOT OK AT ALL; if you try to inflict your opinion(s) on others and “also urge” them to accept; otherwise you hint upon them as being “stupid.
There is no justification for anyone “to order” other people to accept one’s opinion(s) which in your case thus far is as if Your Opinion is THE ONLY and THE FINAL WORD OF WISDOM.
You know it very well that Ahmadiyya Muslims also believe that Holy Quran is the Word of God; full of adequate rationale for all times, every bit of it.
Should you still like to impose your thoughts upon them “to abrogate” parts of the Holy Book; even if you think it is something right to do in your personal opinion?
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Attention: The Moderators of TMT
1. Do you not see that comments by “alatif” are derogatory and offensive (religiously and politically); towards the SANCTITY AND RESPECT of various religious beliefs and the political ideologies in the world.
2. Does he/she has any right whatsoever “to Urge” various Governments and Heads of the States to accept his/her ideas through the pages of TMT?
3. Is TMT obligated to publish his/her thoughts (commandments)?
Shahid has a point. (regarding ‘alatif’s comments). We as moderators of TMT like to encourage discussions, but sometimes the repetitive kind of comments no longer serve the purpose. Everyone’s comments are ‘his/her opinion.
There is no need to spread the discussion. My moto is love for all, hatred for none. But right and wrong should be separated. Wholesale abrogation of Bible or Hadith or Quran is wrong and should not be done (or preached.)
@ Shahid Pervaiz
Love for all, and hatred for none, it means accept the different thought, idea, race, gender and different interpretation.
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I just convey God’s words, there is obligation or compulsion..
If you accept, you will get benefits of them
if you reject it, you will not get the benefits of God’s laws.
You are free to choose,my friend.
All love
@ ghulam sarwar,
Love for all, and hatred for none, it means accept the different thought, idea, race, gender and different interpretation.
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If you try eliminate between bad and good in matter of faith,or beliefs, you impose people to believe in you. That is what happen now in Saudi Arabia. They accuse Muslim shia and Ahmadiah are bad, infidel. They discriminate them. Do you support that kind of ideology? If you are a good Muslim Ahmadiyah, you should not support that ideology.
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1. I said that all violent Hadits should be abrogated.(not all Hadits ) Why? because extremist Muslim kill innocent people. They take order from their idol to kill innocent people, Muslim Ahmadiyah, Shia and infidel.
Only evil like to kill innocent people.
Why do you reject my suggestion, do you want to see people get kill?
As well as violent verses should be abrogated too, other wise extremist Muslim will kill Muslim Ahmadiyah, Shia, innocent people and children.
Those 10 verses can not be applied in 21st century.
Do you still want to see extremist Muslim to kill innocent people and children? Do you support extremist Muslim ideology?
As well as the sadistic punishment such as; cutting of the hand of thief, beheaded, 100 slash for women etc.
Do you support the government to apply the sadistic punishment?
Old interpretation from old scholars believe that all Allah’s laws can be changed for ever until the end of world. right?
Modren interpretation base on Al Quran, we can change the rule of Allah regarding of worldly,according to the progress of human culture and science.
EXCEPT the rule of shalah, direction of Shalah, fasting, Hajji to Meccah, and zakat (tax).
Please ponder this verse from Allah.
Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves . QS .13:11.
1. we can change the way we dress
2. we can change the way to rule of government
3. we can change the way we work,
4. we can change the way of Government to punish people etc.
5, we can change the way how to make a good house
So we do need to follow sunnah and verses exactly, we should follow the sunnah and verses professionally and rightly.
If you still need more example, i will post it to you.
All love
The Holy Quran is an Eternal message of the Eternal God and will never change as has been predicted by Allah himself in Sura Hijr and quoted above, very appropriately, in one of the comments by Shahid Pervaiz Sahib.
So, no believing Muslim can ever think of changing the Holy Quran and non-believers, who may wish to do so, can never succeed, as foretold by All-Knowing God Himself.
Love for all, and hatred for none, it means accept the different thought, idea, race, gender and different interpretation.
Let me tell you clearly;
1. I agree that Al Quran can not be changed for ever.
we agree that 100 %
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2. But you should agree that interpretation of verses in Al Quran can be changed according to the progress of science and human culture.
I gave you some example above.
Please ponder it with the pure heart.
All love
Dear alatif, please understand that different interpretation is good and Ahamdis are doing it. But you are suggesting abrogation. verses cannot be abrogated. Interpretation is alright. Do it. But do not do away with it like Mr. Paul did it to the law of Moses.
Jesus a.s. said he had come to fulfill the law of Moses a.s. But Paul fulfilled it by doing away with the law. Was that fulfilling the law? Paul even called the law “A Curse”. That was bad remarks about the law given by God Almighty.
You are trying to do the same thing with Quran and Hadith. That is not possible with Islam. Remember new teachers have arrived. They are interpreting the verses for you. If you find any trouble with the interpretations then please complain. But do not do away with the verses of the Quran and Hadith. Thank you with all love. Wassalam.
Please do not delete my respond to @ Ghulam Sarwar.
even you do not like my respond, Love and respect the different idea, thought and interpretation. May Allah bless us all, Ameen.
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This is verse below is out of date,extremist Muslim can implement this verse any more;
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Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Extremist Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. QS 9;29.
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If you do not agree with me, do you suggest Pakistan Government or Islamic states to implement Allah’s law above?
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Do you suggest Jews, Christian and Hindu have to pay “Jizya” ?
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Can you explain it?,Thanks
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All love
Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2014/04/countries/united-states/new-york-film-at-911-museum-sets-off-clash-over-reference-to-islam#ixzz30Gle9dSO
=alatif=
Which “ONE” of the following could be considered as your true belief:-
QUOTE
ONE
These verses in chapter 9 was a specific historical event are abrogated or are invalid.
TWO
I agree that Al Quran can not be changed for ever.
we agree that 100 %
UNQUOTE
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Following is another piece from your writing:-
QUOTE
Love for all, and hatred for none, it means accept the different thought, idea, race, gender and different interpretation.
UNQUOTE
You are as free as anyone else to have your opinion(s) but you are missing to realize that it is being disrespectful to others when you Adamantly Impress that your opinion(s) “Be Accepted”, as well.
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More than the above; you also bind the readers with effective benefits for “accepting” or “rejecting” your opinion(s):-
QUOTE
If you accept, you will get benefits of them
if you reject it, you will not get the benefits of God’s laws.
UNQUOTE
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=alatif=
All the Quranic Verses that relate to Muslim Warfare have ONE Common Background:-
Muslims (of early period in particular) and God Fearing Muslims of all periods were and are extremely humble in their manners that they could prefer to avoid confrontation in all situation (aggression imposed on them, included) and would still continue to offer peaceful means.
The foremost evidence of this kind behaviour is so very rightly depicted during the Meccan Days of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his followers (ra).
Since Holy Quran was to complete as an code of life for the entire humanity, thus come its verses that you like to refer.
Meanng thereby that when in either enmity of faith or in retalliation to the message of peace; and if an aggression is exerted by your opponants, then that should be fought back in steadfastness until the aggressor is subdued and peace is restored.
It would be injustice if this background is ignored in understanding the given sense of such verses; which are about defensive engagement only.
The first condition of any such engagement being that the aggression is initiated (to begin with) and imposed upon you by the aggressor.
You may like to read verses in Surah Hajj which define the conditions of rebuttle.
Holy Quran is not a “Creative Writing” by any human. If anyone believes that Holy Quran is the word of God then one should try to pick up the rationale, as well.
It would be foolish to think that Allah descends His word proclaiming that it is “His Message of Peace” and then would want the followers of His Book to wake up in the morning and be busy hunting infidels ???????
Is Prophet of Islam (saw) not recognized as the Messanger of Peace; The Law Giving Prophet and Author of Peaceful Accords ?
Picking Verses at Random and Detatching them from their essential Backgrounds and Contexts of Reference and then Branding them Hostile; IS CRUEL INJUSTICE.
I want to thank brother Shahid Pervaiz for his beautiful explanation.
May Allah reward you for taking out time to explain the context of the verses of the Holy Quran.
Additionally, I want to link an article, which I wrote a few years ago, on some what similar theme:
War and Peace in Islam: Fundamental versus Allegoric
The world in the past was genuinely divided into “House of Islam,” and “House of War,” and it was not in anyone’s imagination alone.
In 1492, the same year that America was discovered by Christopher Columbus, each and every Muslim was killed, converted by force or banished from Spain. No Muslim was allowed to live in Europe for centuries, until the European Enlightenment. No Muslim Heritage was acknowledged in Europe, for centuries and every thing was white washed almost completely.
This was the context of interpreting some of the verses of Sura Taubah, of the Holy Quran, in face of two camps in the world, in the past.
The same verses will be interpreted differently, in the context of Global Village that we live in now and most sensible people are talking about Universal Brotherhood and the Muslim Times is fostering that, as its mission statement.
Just this week President Obama was telling Malaysia that for it to progress the non-Muslims, should enjoy equal opportunity as the Muslims in the country. The same could and should be said for the Muslims in India, China, Europe and Americas.
The verses or the message has not changed, but, the context has. The context may yet change again. But, I hope not!
@ Shahid Pervaiz.
Allah sent down His revelation to Prophet Muhammad (saw) according to this condition. Also Prophet and Clerics gave advice to people according to this condition.
This is verse below is out of date,extremist Muslim can NOT implement this verses any more;
Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Extremist Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. QS 9;29.
Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder on the earth, their punishment is no other than that they shall be killed, or be crucified, or their hands and legs be cut off from different sides, or they be kept away from the land (they live in) 23 . That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them there is a great punishment in the Hereafter; (33) Except those who repent before you overpower them. Then, be sure that Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful. (34) QS 5;33-34
If you do not agree with me, do you suggest Pakistan Government or Islamic states to implement Allah’s law above?
OR if you are a ruler in Pakistan, you want to implement God’s law above ( 9:29) ?
Do you suggest Jews, Christian and Hindu have to pay “Jizya” ?
If you are agree, you are supporting extremist Taliban who collect Jizyah, in Pakistan and syria.
Do you suggest barbaric punishment as QS 5;33-34 ?
If you agree, you are supporting extremist ideology “Jihadist”
Can you explain it?, yes or no? THANKS
All love
=alatif=
Sorry to know your Obsessive Compulsions with your “Self-Created (Intrusive) Ideas” and lack of rational thinking.
Like every other solemn charter of human rights, the Islamic Teaching is also about every nation’s right of Defensive Engagement to wade off an IMPOSED AGGRESSION.
Does such a right permit anyone (Muslims included) to practice it without any just cause (aggression imposed)?
If any Muslim does so, that must be condemned.
Ahmadiyya Muslims are well known to condemn any such practices since the last 125 years.
Instead of understanding the rationale of Islamic Teaching, you want to abrogate the very given law !!!
Will you be advocating abrogation of any such clauses (right to defend against an aggression) from any other similar charters of human rights?
Instead of creating squabble out of your arguments better study further if you can.
End of Discussion.
@ Shahid Pervaiz…quote –End of Discussion.–unquote.
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It seems to me that you are angry, and you hate me. you did not answer my question honestly. you want to end.
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Please answer my question honestly.
If you are President Pakistan one day, do you want to apply Allah’s law as following?
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Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Extremist Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. QS 9;29.
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Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder on the earth, their punishment is no other than that they shall be killed, or be crucified, or their hands and legs be cut off from different sides, or they be kept away from the land (they live in) 23 . That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them there is a great punishment in the Hereafter; (33) Except those who repent before you overpower them. Then, be sure that Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful. (34) QS 5;33-34
Please answer; Yes or Not
All love
alatif I have already answered your questions, I believe.
I will reproduce my comment here, again.
I want to thank brother Shahid Pervaiz for his beautiful explanation.
May Allah reward you for taking out time to explain the context of the verses of the Holy Quran.
Additionally, I want to link an article, which I wrote a few years ago, on some what similar theme:
War and Peace in Islam: Fundamental versus Allegoric
The world in the past was genuinely divided into “House of Islam,” and “House of War,” and it was not in anyone’s imagination alone.
In 1492, the same year that America was discovered by Christopher Columbus, each and every Muslim was killed, converted by force or banished from Spain. No Muslim was allowed to live in Europe for centuries, until the European Enlightenment. No Muslim Heritage was acknowledged in Europe, for centuries and every thing was white washed almost completely.
This was the context of interpreting some of the verses of Sura Taubah, of the Holy Quran, in face of two camps in the world, in the past.
The same verses will be interpreted differently, in the context of Global Village that we live in now and most sensible people are talking about Universal Brotherhood and the Muslim Times is fostering that, as its mission statement.
Just this week President Obama was telling Malaysia that for it to progress the non-Muslims, should enjoy equal opportunity as the Muslims in the country. The same could and should be said for the Muslims in India, China, Europe and Americas.
The verses or the message has not changed, but, the context has. The context may yet change again. But, I hope not!
@ Zia Shah and Shahid Pervaiz ..
we are agree, that what I said, that Allah sent down His laws according the condition of how people’s problem and condition of nature or culture.
Sent down when ( House of war and House of Peace).
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My question.
Do you support Taliban in Pakistan to collect Jizyah from non Muslim, QS 9;29.
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Islamic Extremists in Syria now Crucifying People refer to Allah’s laws QS 5;33-34 ?
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Of course, we do’nt justify Jizyah or any crucifixion. You could have judged that from our comments above.
Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins or someone else was crucified instead of him? Yes or no?
quote–Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins or someone else was crucified instead of him? Yes or no?—unquote
I already gave my respond before, that these verses are a mutasyaabihaat QS 3;1-7,Only Allah know it.
With all my love
Alatif is making much more sense compared to Shahid Pervaiz or Ghulam Sarwar. I am amazed that they both think the comments of Alatif should not be published. There goes your freedom of thought and speech. This is proof of how little they understand Islam or its teachings. Quran says, bring forth your argument. It also says let him stand who has proof and let him perish who does not. Quran does not teach censorship as proposed by Shahid and Ghulam Sarwar.
As for the troubles of Islam, almost all of them can be traced back to some hadith. So yes, those who are big on ahadith are misguided. Every hadith should be carefully looked at in the light of the teachings of the Holy Quran and rejected right away if it is not in line. (and there are hundreds if not thousands of such examples)
Quran is not changeable. But Quran is in Arabic and a complex text. It requires detailed and careful interpretation. Most places where killing is being mentioned, the word “Jihad” has been used in one form or another. This cannot be translated as war or killing. It only means struggle. These days the methods of struggle have changed. War is not permitted. Also word “Qital” can also be translated as struggle according to Arabic lexicon.
Although no verses of the Quran are abrogated, but there are many verses of the Quran which have no use these days. They are still part of the Quran and will apply once again when the conditions are right. But in the present day they do not apply. This is true for most of the “Killing” verses.
Another example: In Sura Ahzab Allah has addressed the wives of the Prophet and told them that after his death they will not be permitted to marry again. I ask Shahid and Ghulam Sarwar to find the application of this verse in the present times.
Let us open our minds and reduce our “Aqeedat” and apply our God given wisdom (Afala Taqeloon).
@ CS…quote:Although no verses of the Quran are abrogated, but there are many verses of the Quran which have no use these days. They are still part of the Quran and will apply once again when the conditions are right. But in the present day they do not apply. This is true for most of the “Killing” verses.unquote.
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I definitely agree that there are no verses of Al Quran will be taken out from the book, but I want to make clear that we ,as moderately educated Muslim, like Muslim Ahmadiyah have to dare to declare to public that those verses can not apply in this 21st century as well as violent Hadits.
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If we keep silence, extremist Muslim will not stop killing innocent people, Muslim Shia, Muslim Ahmadiyah, blasphemy etc.around the world.
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with all my love
CS, I do not think that any of us suggested to ban the ideas of alatif. You have supported alatif idea of abrogation of verses, may be verses of the Quran as well as the bible.
You should understand the meaning of abrogation. The application being in abeyance is different to abrogation. alatif was bent upon abrogating the verses of the Quran and we have tried to oppose and explain many times but to no avail. After reading alatif many times and after explaining many times, alatif did not agree. So we had to give in.
Cs, you can also go along with alatif to abrogate the verses of Quran. You can believe in abrogation. Even Jesus a.s. had said that not a word of law will be abrogated. But what the Christians have done! They have believed that the law of Moses a.s. was a curse. Look how abusive word has been used by church about a divine law?
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quote– Ghulam Sarwar
May 1, 2014 at 5:24 pm
CS, I do not think that any of us suggested to ban the ideas of alatif. You have supported alatif idea of abrogation of verses, may be verses of the Quran as well as the bible.–unquote
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Ghulam Sarwar, Unfortunately,the moderator of The Muslim Times still delete some of my responds.
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The moderator still hate my respond. Do not accept the different interpretation of Islam.They think they are a true Muslim, other are not.
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With all love