Video Debate: Do We Need a British Islam?

These pictures are of Tower Bridge in London

Suggested Reading

Shariah and Constitution: A Personal Journey

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community’s Unequivocal Pledge for Secularism

Tower Bridge

Aerial view of Tower Bridge and the River Thames at night. Photograph: Jason Hawkes/theguardian.com

9 replies

  1. Three people in this video are constantly lying. The woman in ‘niqab’, the imam with a beard and the black bald guy. The fact is that the concept of ‘hijab’ has strong basis in religion. It is not a choice. The woman who would not observe ‘hijab’ is socially isolated and declared immoral by the leaders of religion. So the need for conformity requires the women to observe ‘hijab’. So it is not a choice as misrepresented by the woman in the ‘niqab’.
    Also the testimony of woman is half that of a man. This concept is based in religion and accepted by vast majority of Muslims including the three liars on the panel. The ‘Sharia Councils’ are not a choice either. The women are forced into it and they never get justice because people like the three liars are on the panel in these councils.
    And most certainly the punishment of an apostate is death. It is agreed by all Muslim scholars of jurisprudence, without any exception. It is the practice in all Muslim societies. It is the law in many Muslim countries. The three liars also believe this.
    The problem is that the three liars are in majority and in control of Muslim societies in these times. When they are faced with questions, they reply in rhetoric. They refuse to accept the problem. No reformation is possible as long as these people are in charge.
    Islam has a problem. Common Muslim understands this. But people like the three liars are in charge. Common Muslims need help from the Western governments. I hope they will not bow to the three liars and will stand with the common Muslims to reform the religion.

  2. @ CS—Muslims need help from the Western governments. I hope they will not bow to the three liars and will stand with the common Muslims to reform the religion.===

    I am just laughing when I read your words as above.

    When I ask you to reform this verse, and you reject it.

    I post here again. give me your thought.

    1.Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder(rebels) on the earth, their punishment is no other than that they shall be killed, or be crucified, or their hands and legs be cut off from different sides, or they be kept away from the land (they live in) 23 . That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them there is a great punishment in the Hereafter. (QS 5;33).

    2.Theft / Corruption.
    As for a man or a woman who commits theft, cut off the hands of both to punish them for what they earned,_a deterrent punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. QS 5;38.

    3.Flogging.
    The fornicating woman and the fornicating man, flog each one of them with one hundred stripes. No pity for them should prevail upon you in the matter of Allah’s religion, if you really believe in Allah and the Last Day; and a group of believers must witness their punishment. (2) A man who is fornicator does not (like to) marry but a woman who is a fornicator or a polytheist; and a woman who is a fornicator does not (like to) marry but a man who is a fornicator or a polytheist. And this (i.e. preferring to marry such spouses) has been prohibited for the believers. 1 (3). QS 24;2-3.

    4.JIZYAA
    3, Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Extremist Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. QS 9;29

    Do you still these kind punishment are applicable in 21st Century, or in Modern Pluralistic world?

    Or do you stick on harsh punishment that terrorist and Saudi Arabia still implement today.

    What is your answer.

    Was Salam

  3. Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the only Muslim community which has the correct and moderate interpretation of Islam. Let me address each point of the above comment.
    1) Those who fight Muslims, kill them and commit other grievous crimes against them should be punished by death. This is no different than any other government even today. If you are attacked, you have the right to defend. And the punishment for murder is death. This is normal and accepted internationally. There is no war permitted for the spread of Faith nor there is any punishment for rejecting the Faith.
    2) Punishments mentioned in the Holy Quran are to be given only to those who are habitual and egregious offenders. They are meant only to make an example of the most evil and corrupt people. They are not meant for everyday use. For example in the USA if you are caught selling drugs three times, you go to jail for life. Every society has such punishments to maintain the peace of the society.
    3) Fornicators are to be punished but only those who are so shameless to do their deed in public. Not everyone! Who would do adultery so that four eye witnesses are present in addition to the accuser. But if someone has fallen to this state then the punishment of flogging is prescribed. Those who would accuse but are unable to produce four eye witnesses will be punished. So this discourages the accusers. I believe only practical application of this punishment is for those who produce pornography. Almost every country in the world has tried to restrict and contain pornography due to its obvious implications. So ordinary people who are living in the society as decent persons are not the subject of these punishments.
    4) Jizzya was imposed only when the non believer citizens of a Muslim state did not serve in the army. If they do then they are exempt from such taxes. It is a choice for the non believers to refuse to serve in the Muslim Army. Famous boxer Muhammad Ali in the USA was put in jail for two years and stripped of his title when he refused to serve in the Vietnam war. Islam does not prescribe jail time. It imposes a tax. I don’t see a problem with that either. Do you?
    So the verses of the Holy Quran can be interpreted to make sense. They are flexible. But it is important to note that you cannot just refuse to accept the guidance from God and create your own rules. (This is what most of the so called ‘ulema’ (read ignorant) do). Saudis are not the authority nor any other human being. Our religion is in the Quran.
    I believe in the entire Quran. I believe that Quran teaches peace, friendship, and equality for all. It prohibits discrimination on any basis, gender, race, color, or anything else. It provides and protects the rights of all human beings.
    I hope this helps.

    • The Christian Bible also has these punishments, but has changed and become more “human rights” based and accepted modern day thinking. It was only a short time ago it did this just over a hundred years ago.
      Islam will go the same way, I agree it needs to get with the times now and that dominant Muslim countries need to respect human rights as well or face international judgement..however as long as the west is in bed with the Saudis it will not happen over there.
      The case where the woman who was raped was jailed for unlawful sexual intercourse is a classic example of thee enormous injustices for sure…

      Your posting was much appreciated

  4. @ CS—please go to the point–straight anwers–your long respond did not answer my question.

    Do you support this ancient laws in Islamic states such as; Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Isis and Taliban?

    Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder(rebels) on the earth, their punishment is no other than that they shall be killed, or be crucified, or their hands and legs be cut off from different sides, or they be kept away from the land (they live in) 23 . That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them there is a great punishment in the Hereafter. (QS 5;33).

    Execution will be carried out at front of public.

    Do you support it?

    Was salam

  5. I have answered your question amply in my response. Islam is mentioned in the Holy Quran. How Saudi’s or Taliban interpret it is their business. I do not agree with it.
    Let me ask you a question and see if you can answer it properly.
    What should be the punishment of a person who attacks a nation, kills its people and tries to destroy them?

  6. @ CS–If I am not wrong, you really support the ancient laws that relate to the criminal justice in Saudi Arabia, Taliban and ISIS. Such as;

    Crucified, Cut off the feet and hands.
    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.― (QS 5; 33).

    Hand amputation.
    As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a retribution for their deed and exemplary punishment from Allah and Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom. QS 5; (38).

    Flogging 100 times in public.
    The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication― flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. QS 24;(2).

    MARRIAGE WITH SLAVE
    And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan¬girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice. QS 4;3.

    And those who guard their chastity (5) Except from their wives or (captive of war) that their right hands possess, – for then, they are free from blame; QS 23;5-6.

    So your faith is not much difference with the faith of extremist Muslim Taliban,Isis, Saudi Arabia,Iran and those who live in JUNGLE of Brazil. Primitive people,without knowledge.

    I do not know this is the faith of Ahmadiyah or your personal faith.

    JEWS AND CHRISTIAN DO NOT USE THE ANCIENT LAW ANYMORE SUCH AS;

    STONING TO DEATH
    If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21

    If a man is caught in town having intercourse with a girl who is engaged to someone else, stone both of them to death (Deuteronomy. 21)

    If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

    But some of extremist Muslim still use the stoning sentence to death for gay lesbian, apostate, blasphemer etc. in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan,Somalia etc Nauzubillah.

    FROM MY PERSPECTIVE OF ISLAM.

    HUMAN CIVILIZATION /HUMANITY/ SAVAGERY
    The more advanced the civilization is, the more subtle sense of humanity so that more stringent restrictions on the atrocities. Or the more civilized a society, the more high sense of humanity .

    The act of sadistic punishment could happen during ancient time, not only in Islamic countries, but also happened at other countries, like Japan, China, and the Europe. In this 21st century, the civil society, advance countries do not use the ancient punishment anymore. They change them with jail punishment. Or using electrical tools or Chemical for dead sentence in closed room.

    Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves . QS .13:11.

    And such are the Parables We set forth for mankind, but only those understand them who have Knowledge. QS 29; 43.

    If you refuse to learn, you are hurting yourself. If you accept correction, you will become wiser. Proverb of David.

    Do not follow the majority when they do wrong or when they give testimony that prevents justice. Do not show partiality to a poor man at this trial.(exodus.23;2)

    If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. QS.6:116.

    I reject the ancient Islamic laws such harsh sentences. I support the system justice of America. Hopefully educated Muslim will support a reformation of Islamic laws relate to the worldly affair.

    Was Salam
    READ MORE; how to follow the sunnah correctly in 21st century;
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eWUfz-Hqg5w9qTuuz4e4a2uUQUutUKlkXi70ZnyFWX0/edit?usp=sharing

  7. As expected your never ending rant did not provide the answer. Most of what you have written in your above comment and tried to attribute it to the Quran is in fact your own ideas. For example there is no mention of stoning in the Quran, yet you think it is Islamic punishment. You have vomited your own ideas in your above comment. At the end of your comment you have rejected the guidance of the Holy Quran.
    And still you have not answered the question. So let me ask again.
    What should be the punishment of a person who attacks a nation, kills its people and tries to destroy them?
    Please just briefly answer the question. Do not spill the same old false accusations. Thanks.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.